A really beautiful and serious thing

[Nightwatch]

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Edited December 13, 2011 by Nightwatch

[xenophon]

We must be ignored and disregarded. We are a living refutation.

Substance abuse treatment is a disaster; an enormous black joke. "For what we are about to receive, oh Lord, let us be truly thankful". I do not expect change in my lifetime. We await a Lister or Pasteur.

But, it is what are supposed to do, as adults: Recognize that a mistake has been made; a bad habit has been fallen into. Then, recognizing that, take effective steps on our own to get shut of it.

My user name has meaning: Xenophon wrote a book, entitled "Anabasis". Anabasis means an expedition from the sea to the interior. Which is what Xenophon did; and, what I did.

[JulianP]

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Edited February 4, 2010 by JulianP

[xenophon]

JP, thank you sir.

I reflect that god is just. "The mills of god grind slowly; but, they do grind, exceedingly small."

The real world is full of people who drew a line under all sorts of 'bad habits'. With varying degrees of help. I had 'anti help'; people trying to tell me what I could not do. I left them where I found them. And, some real help - in the form of books for the most part.

I have little interest in those who preach the dogma of 'can't do'.

Very simply, I determined what I needed/wanted to do. And, set about making it so. There were significant changes to be made; which took time and adjustment and effort. In that, I am not unusual. Let no one think that I am. Shame on those who think that I am.

[Mark]

At this point, it seems safe to say that we all feel we are being not heard properly, and all involved here actively are upset about that.

I personally believe that I'm being asked, implicitly and explicitly, to become the exemplar of the aspirations of this group - the "fully enlightened" mental health professional who has learned to see the error of his ways and now actively un-promotes AA for all the many valid reasons presented here. That I am open to reexamining my views is appreciated, but not enough for you all to like me as a person. I will not receive your true accolades until I fully capitulate to your vision and your hard won views.

I think it is fair to say that you do not really want to influence professionals so much as you want professionals to accept your views as gospel. There is a dominance element in play between two sides which is preventing us from being able to recognize each other as people. From my own perspective, it feels as though I am being asked to submit, not so much to the people carrying the message but to the rightness of the message itself.

I do not see myself as trying to dominate the very intelligent anti-aa group participating here. I see myself as trying to hold my own counsel in the face of what is frequently aggressive speech. I'm not talking about the content of the speech, but rather the posture of it.

It seems to me that the anti-aa group views my unwillingness to capitulate as something aggressive in itself, as though by attempting to say, "I reserve my own counsel", I am actually saying, "you're all a bunch of losers", who as Xenophon so explicitly expressed "don't matter". Let me clarify that I'm not saying the latter at all. I hope that it is clear that I think you all do matter, Xenophon included and do take your positions seriously. This does not mean that I share them all or value them in the same way. I can respect and honor without seeing things the same way.

Where I am trying to respect and honor but not capitulate (essentially trying to maintain an assertive posture) I seem to be being responded to as though I'm being aggressive - dominant - suggesting to me that 1) I have perhaps become a proxy onto which is being projected past experience with mental health professionals, and 2) that many if not all of you have felt incredibily dominanted - by aa certainly, and that some of you are very sensitized to the feeling of being dominated, perhaps into the mild paranoid range where even people who are working hard to try to be neutral in the midst of a heated discussion can come across as aggressive (yes Ray, I'm thinking of you here, but not only of you).

I'm not immune myself by any means. I'm certainly needing to chose my words carefully because I'm feeling angry reading this stuff. I am feeling attacked too. I share this because this is not an interaction between a therapist doing therapy and group therapy participants, but rather a discussion between people from various backgrounds who want to talk about AA. I'm not here to help the anti-aa contingent as a therapist; I'm here becuase I have a personal interest in better understanding the issues being talked about here. Some of these issues are about aa itself and how it is run, and some of these issues are about us here talking about aa and the dynamics that are occurring. It occurs to me that these two levels may be related.

Would it not be funny or ironic or whatever the right term is, if the very people who were so trampled upon and wounded by aa's insistence on dominating them turned around later and became people who felt a need to dominate others - not out of a sense of wanting to dominate in an antisocial fashion, but rather out of a sense of wanting to overcome a feeling of helplessness. In other words, aa perhaps impressed the dominance/subbordination dynamic into people's heads, and in escaping aa, it has not yet been possible to escape the either/or of dominant or be dominated. Since no one wants to be dominated, the alternative is to find someone else to dominate.... Not that this is all that is going on, but it seems to me that it is maybe some of what is going on.

In closing I want to say to JP that your restatement of my point about people sometimes need external regulation is a good one. It is a better thing if external regulation can be arranged in the manner of a good parent who will help to teach self-regulation, rather than in the manner of a bad parent who will teach domination.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Mark

[xenophon]

Mark, as a layman, I appreciate the difficulties of the therapeutic process, which may be complicated by substance abuse. As I understand it, the process is, frequently, complicated by it. Rightly or wrongly, I have come to the opinion that destructive drinking/drugging is linked to 'mental suffering'/mental illness. In other words, there are reasons for it. I think that makes both more difficult to handle. It is not, 'merely', drinking too much.

Although, sometimes drinking too much is simply drinking too much. Current methods do not appear to deal effectively with 'dual diagnosis'. That is my main 'beef'.

Fervently held opinions, fervently expressed do tend to generate a lot of heat.

My own view is that there are two big factors: first is severity of the problem. Someone like me -- who drank too much for a year -- is much different from someone who drank a pint of vodka a day for 20 years.

And, state of mind is important and/or life circumstance. An alcohol dependent person with borderline PD is not the same as someone with OCD or depression.

Quite frankly, I do not see how AA is equipped to deal with that.

For me, I take umbrage at AA that insults my experience. But, I will get over that. I just want professionals to pay attention. I know it is a difficult problem.

[JulianP]

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Edited February 4, 2010 by JulianP

[xenophon]

I am, basically, done here. I just want to say that I am glad that got through what I got through in one piece. It was a 'great adventure". And, I have my life back; and, an entirely different one: new wife; new family; new home; new state. Back in Feb 2004, I would have never thought it. Drinking too much was, simply, my own [ineffective] way of living through what I had to live through.

I have not changed my view that someone who quits on their own is not taken seriously by aa and the SAT business. They are not. Perhaps, some individuals do; but, not those entities. I will go about my business now.

I hope that one day substance abuse treatment improves.

[John Rutledge]

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Edited October 28, 2009 by John Rutledge

[Nightwatch]

deleted................

Edited December 13, 2011 by Nightwatch

[JustTrying]

I want to join in!!!!

Let me just tell you what I have been up to... no bashing either way.

Earlier this month I called and made an apointment at the CDC ( Chemical Dependancy Complex) for outpatient treatment. I went on what was to be a last hurah and ended up with DUI #2.... Now mind you, I already made the apointment. As some of you know I have been struggling with this for years. I have been in and out of AA for 15 yrs and just recently started NA which I found more to my liking ( More people and more women and more folks close to my age)

After many years of therapy ( with a man that does not like or approve of AA ---- Even though I went) I believe I have finally found a therapist that understands. It is like she can read my mind. Our goal is to take a brief look at the past and see what causes the pain and feelings that I try to drink away. She also does 12 step , we are working on a Step 1 worksheet and then we will discuss it. For once I feel like things are going to be explained.

I also have had a medication added for depresion.... Symbylax... I love it!

Will I totally work the 12 steps? That remains to be seen, but it is nice to have someone explain them to me and not just say "do this".

Even though I had cut way back on the drinking.... as of today I have 5 days and I feel great. I think the meds help. I see the new therapist once a week.

I do know personally several people that after 15 -25 yrs sober still attend AA. I do not think I want to feel like I have to attend AA or I will relapse. I am looking forward with the help of my therapist and my doctors and MYSELF and yes perhaps GOD to find happiness. And in order to be happy alcohol has to go because me an alcohol are a deadly combination.

Sorry I don't now how to use all of ya'lls fancy words and all.... I can only talk the way I talk but maybe someone will get the point.

JustTrying

OH YEAH>>> I wanted to mention I got 5 days in Jail - 2 this wk.. 2 next .. 1 next... Sitting in that cell talking to women addicted to Meth, Crack and alcohol ( You name it) was the best eye opener for me... one was going away for 22 yrs... she has to leave her beloved grandson behind. Another facing a year.... just got a call that her son tried to commit suicide because he couldn't be with his Mommy... Another just got her back pay and bonded out and was headed right to the meth house. The young un (28) said she couldn't wait to do her year and get out and get a beer and some pills.

I listened to their stories and I could see that in my future.... a future I do not want. I only got 5 days in jail and 1 yr suspension and of course a heafty fine ( which my husband will pay). Normally I would have said it was just dumb luck I got caught... but I am thankful for my 5 days in jail.... I hope to see more horror stories and see the afterresults of addiction.

Whatever it takes, AA or NA or NOT..... going with my husband a few days a week or anything. I will beat this.... Oh yeah I also for 24 weeks need to attend a class called ACTS.... They are suppose to help with lifes problems and addiction. I start Monday.

Didn't mean to ramble!

JT

Adding>>>> one more thing. A Dear friend of mine that is only 7 yrs older than me is dying of Heptorenal Syndrome .... that is when your kidneys fail because of liver failure. He has been sober 5 months.... but it is too late for him, all we can do is keep him comfortable and in good spirits... we all know it is a matter of time...... ANOTHER REASON TO GET SOBER......

Edited June 27, 2009 by JustTrying
TO ADD>>>>>

[Abbadun]

Hi JT

I agree with what you said below and I go to AA meetings once in a while. What the AA Culture has created is a system where if you goto AA, you do not criticize AA. It is like a recovery "Fight Club"

What the internet as done is given a outlet for all the non-addressed issues in AA. On a side note, what kind of organization does not address its errors and mistakes? What does that say of the "culture" of this organization?

I work in the recovery field and I have heard counselors and clinical supervisors discuss things like speaking one way to the clients and speaking more secular to Mental Health Dept and Social Services. I am sure that they think that the end justifies the means.

I think that the biggest problem with the "AA Organizational Culture" is that it does not understand that the end does not justify the means.

AB

I want to join in!!!!

Whatever it takes, AA or NA or NOT..... going with my husband a few days a week or anything. I will beat this.... Oh yeah I also for 24 weeks need to attend a class called ACTS.... They are suppose to help with lifes problems and addiction. I start Monday.

Didn't mean to ramble!

JT

[JulianP]

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Edited February 4, 2010 by JulianP

[Abbadun]

I find it hard to believe that there people out there that argue that there nothing major wrong with AA.

We are almost halfway through 2009 and funding sources such as NIDA, HHS & SAMHSA are taking the stance that there are "Many Paths to Recovery". Yet if you go to a AA Meeting there is a good chance that you will spend 60-90 minutes taking about how the Alcoholic must have a HP or face a Alcoholic death or How no human power can keep a person sober.

AB

[Abbadun]

Hi Ray

I would add to this the anti Atheist and Agnostic nature of AA that prevents many members from freely stating their religious beliefs. Most AA groups in my area would automatically discount the sobriety of any member that freely stated zero reliance on a HP.

Sobriety in AA would be so much easier for these members if they could share all of what is going on in their lives.

Abbadun

Many would be happy if us uppity people would just shut up and let the professionals continue to do what they've been doing. You'll get around to listening and treating us with a little respect eventually, right?

It's only been through assertiveness that changes are made.

It's not just the predators in the rooms, or the anti-medication faction, or the religious nature of the program, but the very core of the program that is harmful, it is accepting powerlessness. It is anti-therapeutic. People should be empowered in order to make healthy changes in their lives, not beaten into submission.

[Nightwatch]

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Edited December 13, 2011 by Nightwatch

[John Rutledge]

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Edited October 28, 2009 by John Rutledge

[Abbadun]

Hi Claire

When I do go to a AA meeting it is either in support of someone who still believes in the foundations and doctrine of AA. I also go to gain some benefit from all the people that relapse, I can never forget where I came from.

While I am sitting in a AA meeting listening to all the people announce their new sobriety dates (overwhelmingly people with a HP), I feel no need to attack their religious/spiritual beliefs even-though it has not helped some of them find a consistent sobriety in over 5 years of attending AA.

For me quality sobriety equals the longest sustained sobriety by a person who attends the least number of of AA meetings possible. It is no different from any product or service you use.

Abbadun

Quite true. There were very few admitted Atheists in the meetings I went to, and those few were treated horribly, gossiped about, their sobriety discounted, etc.

I recall a meeting when I was fairly new. We were going around the room and when this one fellow spoke, noses wrinkled and eyes rolled even though he wasn't saying anything particularly unusual. I whispered to the woman next to me, asking what was going on and she whispered back: "Oh, that's John. He's an Atheist. Everybody hates him."

[Ray Smith]

Since I am unable to post over on "Is AA a Cult?", I'll post it here:

Thanks David O/my views

Thank you for sharing you thoughts on AA. I work for an ACT program and also would never suggest AA for any of our clients.

While the success rate for Alcoholics Anonymous is about the same as no treatment at all, for those with coexisting disorders it is almost nonexistent. (Sciacca, Dual Diagnosis of Major Mental Illness and Substance Disorders, 1991)

For decades, mental health professionals have pushed clients into ineffective and potentially damaging 12step treatment. Parallel treatment for mental health and substance abuse was, at one time, the best or only, option that was offered. 12step treatment, which demands the acceptance of powerlessness in the first step, is at odds with most traditional therapy which attempts to empower the individual in order to make healthy choices and changes. Consumers can become overwhelmed and confused by the differences in approaches. (Minkoff, 1989; Evans and Sullivan 2001)

Integrated dual diagnosis programs were introduced twenty-five years ago in NY in response to consumer needs, yet is still ignored by many in the field. Although developed in the US, it wasn't until the rest of the English-speaking world adopted integrated treatment that it began to become available in the US.

The mounting evidence for psychosocial interventions such as Motivational Interviewing and CBT in the treatment of coexisting disorders is disregarded by those who have a vested interest in treatment as usual (TAU) and those they have convinced of 12step's worthiness as a treatment method.

Some mental health professionals prefer to only deal with traditional mental health issues and leave substance abuse to others. No matter what methods are employed, the success rates for substance abuse are low; many find working with such people depressing and frustrating, finding it easier to point them in another direction regardless of whether it works or not. I find this unacceptable.

A mental health professional or social worker who recommends any treatment method has a responsibility to the consumer to base those recommendations on more than testimonials.

Testimonials have their place, and it is not in place of evidence. It would be nice if we could all get rich stuffing envelopes at home but most of us realize that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof; with AA there is none. Unfortunately, many people with moderate to severe mental illness do not have the same sort of defenses against these claims, especially those who have been socially isolated and are more interested in having new friends than the truth of what these new friends are telling them.

It is irresponsible to send vulnerable people to a fear and shame based program that tells them they must identify as alcoholics, are powerless over their addiction, and that if they obtain a conscious contact with God, they can be healed. What happens when a person prays for God to remove their desire to drink as hard as they know how and God does not respond?

Over and over I hear, "Well, it works for some people...", perhaps I should remind them that my clientele are not "some people". They can be trusting souls who become targets for predators and swindlers. I have a duty, an obligation not to place them in situations with such a potential for harm and I certainly wouldn't send them to a program where 17% of the members believe that people shouldn't take psychiatric medications. (Rychtarik, Connors, Dermen, Stasiewicz; Alcoholics Anonymous and the Use of Medications to Prevent Relapse: An Anonymous Survey of Member Attitudes, 2000)

The Handbook of alcoholism treatment approaches: Effective alternatives lists 12step facilitation and Alcoholics Anonymous as 37 & 38 out of 48 alcohol treatment modalities examined. And this is for the treatment of alcoholism, not cooccurring disorders.

Evidence-based practices requires evidence of statistically significant evidence as treatment and the absence of evidence of harm; AA fails this requirement in the Brandsma, the Ditman, the Walsh, and the Vaillant studies.

I'm sorry if the doctors here feel I am repeating myself, but I do not know how else to make myself heard.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Ray Smith

[John Rutledge]

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Edited October 28, 2009 by John Rutledge

[Guest ASchwartz]

Hi Ray,

and welcome to our forum. I do not understand why you cannot post over on the the "comments" part of the website in reaction to "is AA a cult." Is it a tech problem???

Ray, with all due respect to you and your right to your opinions and experiences, I see things differently as JR, JP and many others know.

As someone who has worked in mental health for thirty years I can assure you that no one in mental health has a "vested interest" in AA. The only interest we have is helping people recover. It is true that some therapists do not want to work with someone with addiction problems. But, that is also true with regard to the psychotic illnesses, and other types that some professionals do not feel comfortable with. I am not defending them, just explaining.

I have become aware that some among you seem to think that mental health professional "refer" clients to AA. There is no such thing as a "referral" to AA. Yes, we can suggest and we do suggest, but, we suggest many treatment options, including in patient treatment and others. I found that when I did suggest someone in my practice was having an alcohol problem, that they give AA a try. You know what happened? They did not go. In fact, the only patients I had in my private practice who were AA were people who were in a

AA long before they came to me. Of those people, I can honestly report that All of them were pleased with the help they got from AA whether they were still attending or not.

I can only report this, and from my point of view, my experience, and my discussions with other therapists and clients, that are pleased with AA. In fact, it is only here, on the Internet, where I have run into such an anti AA attitude.

I have said other times, that I have visited AA meetings and in other countries as well as here and the people were very pro AA.

From my point of view, there seems to be a gap between what is appearing on the Internet and what is going on "out there in the world" with regard to AA.

I would like to hear your responses, all of you, but, I really want a respectful discussion and without the bitterness and acusations that seem to characterize some of these interchanges of views.

Allan

[JulianP]

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Edited February 4, 2010 by JulianP

[JustTrying]

IMHO.... You won't hear many people say anything against AA in the "real" world because AA is seen as the only and best way to get sober... You don't go against popular opinion. People who have never had an addiction problem have heard the praises of AA/NA sung so often that they think it is the only way to get sober.

I personally know several people with years of sobriety that still attend AA and have made it a way of life. What ever works for them.

I have been going to AA on and off for years and recently started going to some NA meetings. I do enjoy the people sometimes and having somewhere to go, but I do not think I will ever buy the whole deal.

I am in therapy now ( with a new therapist) that specializes in Chemical Dependency. We are on the real problems. IMHO again, Addiction is only a symptom.

I say what ever works works. I have suggested myself that people might want to give AA/NA a chance. It may be for them. I am a member, but I just go for the FREE group therapy. However, early on , listening to the WAR stories would make me want to drink and I usually stopped and got me a 12 pack on the way home.

Even watching my good friend lay there all swoll up because his liver and kidneys are failing him at the ripe old age of almost 47. Still has not made me make the decision to choose total abstinence. The DUI #2 and the 5 days in jail haven't made me choose TOTAL abstinence. I have decided to make some major changes, to not drink as often and to stay at home if I do, and off the CB and the phone. I am sure that will make a lot of people happy!

Gone are the angry days.... the days of getting drunk and using all those fancy 4 letter words.

I don't understand my thinking, I don't mind the black outs, the falling and the bruises. I seldom get sick and hardly ever have a hangover. The only thing that bothers me about my drinking is that..... People, Parents, sisters, brothers, husband, friends and yes AA... have made me feel that I am doing something Naughty when I drink, that I am Bad, Weak, and Powerless. That I am diseased and I cannot help myself. That I can not possibly drink at all and be sane.

The result of all that talk???? When I get drunk, I get depressed, I feel like I am a bad person, even when I have bothered no one. When I am sitting in my house alone having a few beers , I feel like I am bad. I even feel guilty buying it and I am 40 yrs old.

I am also as part of my DUI#2 having to attend an ACTS class. I too think that is BS. Last week I learned the proper way to sniff paint, the week before we learned abut "designer " drugs and which ones were stronger than Morphine.... Things that I don't need to know. Not to mention the 45 minutes of preaching that goes with it. However , If I become a member of the church I can get away with only 12 wks instead of 24.....

I have been sober for almost 2 wks now.... and yes I feel good, but I have also been busy living life. I haven't had time for AA or NA. I do enjoy going on occasion and have made a few lifelong friends there, but I do not want my life to be controlled by alcohol... either by drinking it to excess or by running to MEETINGS 2 times a day to stay sober.... To me that is allowing alcohol to control you in another way. By running from it.

I know some people who will not even eat a chocolate chip cookie or use mouthwash because after 18 or more years "sober" they are afraid it will cause cravings. I use mouthwash every day and I eat what I please. I do not think I am Powerless over anything. I make the choice to drink and I know that when I drink I am going to drink a lot, but I have never seen the point in drinking 1 .... If you don't want to get drunk, then why drink at all?

I guess I am more into Harm Reduction. To drink in as safe place and stay off the road. And to not let alcohol or drugs interfere in me living a real life. And drinking everyday, passing out and doing it all over again, is not a life....

Sorry for the rant!!!!

JT

[John Rutledge]

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Edited October 28, 2009 by John Rutledge

[Ray Smith]

Hi Ray,

and welcome to our forum. I do not understand why you cannot post over on the the "comments" part of the website in reaction to "is AA a cult." Is it a tech problem???

Ray, with all due respect to you and your right to your opinions and experiences, I see things differently as JR, JP and many others know.

As someone who has worked in mental health for thirty years I can assure you that no one in mental health has a "vested interest" in AA. The only interest we have is helping people recover. Allan

It does appear to have been a tech problem that has been taken care of. I've been coming here to this forum for some time, but thanks for the welcome anyway.

When I talk about a "vested interest", I'm talking of "two-hatters", professional people who are quietly 12step members and use their authority to push people into 12step treatment in the belief they are doing 12th step work.

There's also the matter of kickbacks to social workers and therapists for referrals to treatment centers and rehabs. While it may not be as common as the two-hatter scenario, the treatment center I attended was closed because of kickbacks and I've run across news stories of it happening several times since. Treatment centers, rehabs, and certain programs require referrals, not suggestions.

As a mental health para-professional and vocal critic of 12step treatment, I have been made quite aware of the two-hatters in the mental health field locally and in upstate NY when I was starting out. Twenty years ago there would have been no room in mental health for an outspoken critic of Alcoholics Anonymous. Both my current and former positions with ACT programs has been because I have been successful without AA and that I understand the objections that many clients have with the program.

When I was attempting to do something about my depression through the insurance I had from work, I had little choice in who I saw. Three separate times, therapists refused to work with me unless I attended AA and had several months clean time. That comes more under the heading of "demand" than suggestion or referral. I imagine that if one of your clients responded negatively to your suggestion that he or she attend AA, you wouldn't have refused to treat them, so that's not what I'm talking about. Others in your field may not hold the same standards.

When I went to Social Services in upstate NY I had to agree to a 12step rehab followed by a 12step halfway house and 6 months of 12step treatment in order to receive help for depression, even though I explained that I had been to four other rehabs and was an atheist who repeatedly got worse during my involvements with AA. I later found out that there was an excellent dual diagnosis outpatient program within walking distance from where I had been living. It would have been a much better option in my case; so am I to believe it was incompetence or a vested interest? From the brow beating I received for stating that I didn't do well in AA or 12step treatment, I lean towards vested interest.

If this were a pro-AA site, I'd leave it alone, but this is a mental health site; when people talk about substance abuse on a mental health site, we're talking dual diagnosis. Facts do not support 12step treatment for people with mental health disorders.

Evidence-based treatment for alcohol and drug abuse By Paul M. G. Emmelkamp, Ellen Vedel lists several studies that show CBT superior to 12step facilitation, especially in the treatment of dual diagnosis.

Handbook of alcoholism treatment approaches: Effective alternatives, Allyn & Bacon, shows 37 out of 48 methods tested to be superior to Alcoholics Anonymous, and that's not dual diagnosis specific.

Kathleen Sciacca, a pioneer in the treatment of dual diagnosis has stated that the success rate of traditional 12step treatment on people with coexisting disorders is "too small to be accurately measured" and that she found Motivational Interviewing to have the best results for her clients.

Alcoholics Anonymous does not work as well as its public relations work, and it rarely works for people with significant mental illness at all. These are not opinions, these are the results of all of the non-biased studies and a few of the pro-AA studies.

Throwing someone with mental illness into a program where 12% of the members tell everyone not to take medication isn't a good idea; these are the ones who have been around, the elders, the oldtimers giving bad medical advice to a vulnerable population. You've got a person who wants to people please confronted by a person who represents authority telling him to throw away his medication, he doesn't really need it, he isn't really sick, he just needs God. You're going to chance that everyone he meets in AA is a kind-hearted person who has his best interest in mind?

http://www.jsad.com/jsad/article/Alcoholics_Anonymous_and_the_Use_of_Medications_to_Prevent_Relapse_An_Anon/730.html

A serious question for you Allan. If a sober member of Narconon told you what a wonderful program it is, how it keeps him clean and clear-headed, who you accept his story? Why or why not and what is difference between what he says and what AA members say?

And why do you continue to dismiss those of us who have had first hand experience in the rooms? You may be a mental health professional and I'm only a para, but as far as understanding Alcoholics Anonymous, I'm the professional between the two of us, unless of course you're hiding something. Curious, do you talk to other non-professionals like this, say, your auto mechanic?

The people in the rooms are pro-AA....that's your proof? The people in Klan meetings are certain they're right too.

The results of the Triennial Surveys held by Alcoholics Anonymous show that 95% of all new members drop out in the first year. Do you think all of them were angry, bitter people who wanted to get drunk and are now all dead? Or do you think the might be some valid reasons that people leave?

Not only have I attended hundreds of AA meetings in 5 states (including chairing a meeting in Bill Wilson's childhood home in VT), and attended 5 rehabs, I have made a serious study of Alcoholics Anonymous for the past seven years. I didn't have my feelings hurt by some random member and go ballistic on the program because of it.

I want to make sure that my clients don't have to experience the things that I did in the rooms or in "treatment".

You've attended meetings and didn't see anything wrong with them? Were you looking? Did you ever attend a meeting anonymously?

I have been posting facts which you dismissed as "so called studies". Nothing so-called about what I have posted. Did you bother to look at them? Why did you call them "so-called"? How do you know what you say you know, Allan?

You dismiss me as "angry" and "bitter". Having a strong opinion based on facts and personal experiences is somehow wrong in your eyes?

There is plenty of room for us to disagree, but to have a conversation requires that both of us listen, Doctor. When I give facts and figures, those are not my opinions, but the facts I base my opinions on.

If you want respect, you have to offer some, Allan; you have yet to do so. I have gone out of my way not to respond in kind, not to talk to you or Dr. Dombeck with the distain you two have shown me. Dr. Dombeck does seem to listen some, but I'm not sure I can say the same of you. Perhaps you're used to treating paras like that where you are, thank goodness it's not the case where I work.

And I'll stop repeating myself when you all chose to start listening and quit trying to project your nonsense on me. This is not me being angry or bitter, Allan, this is me calling you on your %*$#.