A really beautiful and serious thing

[JustTrying]

I personally have nothing against AA.... however i do not need the STEPS.. the steps to me teach you how to be a good human... OK>> FINE>> maybe some need that .. but I was raised to be a good, kind, caring person.....

so no the last time I tried the 12 steps someone pushed me down them......

RAY I see your posts all over the internet.. can't say I do not agree with them.. i think I got this site from one of your post.....

JT

[Mark]

I'm seconding what JR has to say about the Narconon posts above. I want to caution people that Narconon is an arm of the Church of Scientology, and as far as I can tell, is a "program" that seems to be more capable of harming vulnerable people looking for addictions help than actually helping them. I have edited the above posts to remove the live links back to the Narconon website, but do not want to censor overly. It is useful to allow expression of the program if only to be able to point out that it is something to avoid, IMHO.

[JustTrying]

Not trying to be mean... aa has helpled many... but they are a cult.... read the orange pages if you have not.....

GABS/ JT

Who is to say allcults are bad....

[WinterSky]

Furthermore, when it comes to bipolar disorder and other mental illnesses, these are grossly over diagnosed. Most people are just sad or stressed out and have absolutely no solution on how to deal with their problems, hence the moodiness and acting out in strange ways. Teach them some skills, give them constructive ways of dealing with their emotions. They will stop.

I think you need to do some homework before stating the above. You know absolutely nothing about mental illness, obviously.

This message is coming from someone who has been there, worked the "program" (psychotherapy), and still has instability in moods. Mental illness begins in the brain and are diseases of the brain, just like diabetes is a disease having to do with the pancreas.

Next we'll hear that schizophrenia isn't a real disease either. Oh and what about Parkinson's Disease. That is a disease in the brain as well.

[WinterSky]

Scientology is a "religion" based on one man's viewpoint. It is based on his own exploration of the world. How bogus is that! I agree, I'd steer clear of it as well.

[xenophon]

Actually, getting shut of alcohol abuse is not impossible. It was not impossible for me, owing to the fact that I did just that. I see no reason to be pessimistic. I was not.

[Guest ASchwartz]

I did not realize, myself, that Narconon is an arm of the scientology group. Perhaps I am mixing the groups on my mind? There are so many "anons," like Ala-non and etc. Anyway, I will second and third Mark and John. Scientology is dangerous. They are a cult, have been accused of spying on members, never letting people leave the group and doing other very unsavory things. Caution: watch out and keep away.

Allan:(

[John Rutledge]

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Edited October 28, 2009 by John Rutledge

[JustTrying]

Actually I have started going to NA ( Narcotics Anonymous) Although I am not hooked on drugs per say. They accept me because they believe alcohol is a drug. Too me it seems to be based on AA but it is newer and is not as old fashioned. In their literature they speak of your emotions, feelings, past hurts etc being the reason you are hooked on "drugs". AA goes more with the disease theory only. NA also says disease but also realizes that you need to get help with the underlying cause. Whether it be from a doctor or from talking to people with similar things in their life.

They had a discussion about how AA treated addicts. We have small towns around here and AA is the only thing available. They were told not to say they were an addict etc. I won't get into it all. Made me mad because My AA group mostly welcomed addicts ... except for the older men. But I tried to explain , me being an alcoholic only... we alcoholics really do not understand drugs. I have never stolen to drink, or killed to drink, or not fed my kids... etc. Not saying all addicts have done that ... or that there are not alcoholics that have not done that.

I personally do not understand METH.. which is popular around here.... I am not putting any DRANO in my body... or Embalming fluid etc. And yeah alcohol may be just as poisonous but, in my mind it is more natural... like Pot. If Pot were legal i would smoke it... I am too scared to buy it.

The way they describe a METH high... it is fantastic... But coming off of it is hell.

BUT back to NA. The people in it around here are closer to my age and there are alot more women. I do not know if I will ever "Work" the steps. But I feel good going, I can relate alot to these people. It is a good place to go and talk some if need be......

JT

[xenophon]

AA is attractive to some people. There are several reasons for that attraction.

a need for structure

a need for authority

loneliness

a need for an answer.

[Ray Smith]

I do know that AA now accepts the fact that many people must be on psychiatric medications of one type or another.

What do you and others think?

Allan Schwartz

I think you're wrong.

A 2000 study by Robert G. Rychtarik, Gerard J. Connors, Kurt H. Dermen, Paul R. Stasiewicz showed:

"Over half the sample believed the use of relapse-preventing medication either was a good idea or might be a good idea.

Only 17% believed an individual should not take it and only 12% would tell another member to stop taking it. Members attending relatively more meetings in the past 3 months had less favorable attitudes toward the medication. Almost a third (29%) reported personally experiencing some pressure to stop a medication (of any type)...

Conclusions: The study did not find strong, widespread negative attitudes toward medication for preventing relapse among AA members. Nevertheless, some discouragement of medication use does occur in AA. Though most AA members apparently resist pressure to stop a medication, when medication is prescribed a need exists to integrate it within the philosophy of 12-step treatment programs." (J. Stud. Alcohol 61: 134-138, 2000)

http://www.jsad. com/jsad/ article/Alcoholi cs_Anonymous_ and_the_Use_ of_Medications_ to_Prevent_ Relapse_An_ Anon/730. html

Only 17%? And the ones with more meetings being more likely to object to medication? This is a serious problem. The new people listen to what the 'older, wiser' members tell them, they are desperate, grasping at straws. They do not know what to pick and choose to listen to, if they did, they wouldn't be there.

From 2004-2006, I worked for a dual diagnosis program in upstate NY; all had been through 12step treatment and meetings unsuccessfully. Each and every one of them had been told at some point by AA members that they weren't "really sober" if they took psych meds.

[Ray Smith]

I'm seconding what JR has to say about the Narconon posts above. I want to caution people that Narconon is an arm of the Church of Scientology, and as far as I can tell, is a "program" that seems to be more capable of harming vulnerable people looking for addictions help than actually helping them. I have edited the above posts to remove the live links back to the Narconon website, but do not want to censor overly. It is useful to allow expression of the program if only to be able to point out that it is something to avoid, IMHO.

I find it amazing that you see something is wrong with Narconon, yet are still ambivalent about AA.

Have you ever been to a real AA meeting? Not one in hospital setting or tucked away in some suburb where the buses don't run, a downtown meeting or one in a clubhouse? Try doing one of those, anonymously, and see if you don't feel differently.

[Mark]

Ray,

I do listen to/read your posts and the posts by similarly voiced peers of yours who post here (Claire, JR, AB, etc.). I take what you have to say seriously. The sheer repetition of the same message over and over again gets old though - starts to focus me less on your message and more on a feeling of sympathy for whatever happened to you to kick you into this mode where you can never rest until everyone sees the "true nature" of AA

I get it that you find nothing of value in AA. You are not alone in this opinion by any means, and my sense is that we will see more critical evaluation of AA in the coming years within the mental health professions anyway.

Why does it have to be the case, however, that any ideas about AA which are out of sync with your own have to be broken? Why are you so intolerant about this?

I know you are a well meaning man. I know you want to help others. I know you want to root out things that will harm others. I know you are right that in your experience of AA, there are predators who harm people there, etc. I'm not saying you are wrong. But can there be no other face to the thing? Are you incapable of recognizing the gray that exists in-between the black and the white?

Your extremity here is the main message I'm hearing lately - not just you - I'm getting this from many sides so my comment here to you is not just a comment to you but to Claire, etc. I find it troubling that you have to be right so much so that a moderate voice like myself has to be challenged relentlessly until final conversion occurs, I suppose. It starts to have an evangelical quality that is disturbing.

Mark

[JulianP]

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Edited February 3, 2010 by JulianP
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[John Rutledge]

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Edited October 28, 2009 by John Rutledge
correction

[Mark]

JR,

AA may indeed be helpful to some people, whether in helping them to give up drinking or otherwise in enhancing their lives. If somebody can accept the AA program, or otherwise accommodate themselves to it in order to obtain social benefit from participation, that is great. I would never wish to dissuade anybody who can benefit from participating in the Fellowship from doing so.

Equally, I am convinced that there are many who are unable to accept or accommodate themselves to the program, whether for reasons of conscience, of conviction, of personality, or for other reasons. For such people, the program may be useless, or even harmful.

I very much agree with the quote you've written above. I'm not arguing for the merits of AA these days, so much as I'm trying to suggest that some people like it and benefit from it. There are a lot of voices who will seemingly never be happy until the entire edifice is torn down, however. I just don't get this, and am prone to understand it as a reaction to people having been very unfortunately victimized by predators within AA (who are certainly there along with non-predators) and who have generalized the negative experience to the *entire* thing as though their own experience is the same thing as everyone else's experience. It comes across as one of those "The Lady Doth Protest too Much" Hamlet-esque sorts of things.

Being a psychologist, I'm prone to want to know what the history is, but I also want to respect people's privacy. I also want to raise people's awareness that they are coming across as over-zealous, but I suspect that people don't see it that way at all, and rather understand me as an *enabler* of some sort. Someone to be converted, because their base position is harmful. It is wearying, but also understandable in a way, and I feel some sympathy because I gather there is a reservoir of pain under the surface. The sustained and self-renewing energy behind the attack is as much a message as the contents of the attack.

Bottom line is that I have listened and I have learned, and I'm not going to move much beyond where I'm at today I don't think, which is pretty much what you've described in the quote (reserving the right to refine the position further). I'm open to further movement, but I'm not seeing new arguments which are compelling. I'm seeing anger, outrage and repetition.

Mark

[JulianP]

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Edited February 3, 2010 by JulianP
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[Ray Smith]

I find it troubling that you have to be right so much so that a moderate voice like myself has to be challenged relentlessly...

You may be more of a "moderate" now, but hasn't that come from people like myself voicing valid objections to the program? And if there is to be a change coming, isn't because people like me have been demanding that our complaints are no longer swept under the rug?

"Moderates" give AA an air of legitimacy, it is still faith healing pure and simple. You and Dr. Schwartz are quick to denounce Narconon, yet its members give the same sort of glassy-eyed reports of how that program saved their lives. (Narconon may actually have a better success rate.) Why so quick to condemn one and not the other?

I am bothered by the idea of mental health professionals green lighting a program that runs contrary to most therapeutic methods. People are taught that they are powerless to change, only God can grant daily reprieves. AA calls for "ego-deflation", that may be of help to a select few, but what about the people who already have problems with self-esteem or depression who make up the majority of people with substance abuse issues? A fear based program that teaches people to distrust their every thought and to turn their will and their lives over to some Higher Power? To focus on the 5% of people who stay sober in AA while willfully ignoring those that are not heped and those that are actually harmed does not make sense.

People with coexisting mental health problems fare poorly in program. A recent study (J. Stud. Alcohol 61: 134-138, 2000) showed 12% of AA members (higher with those who attend more meetings) tell people to stop taking medications of any sort. This is the vocal anti-medication faction that I have spoken about before. A mental health professional who sends a dually diagnosed individual to a group where he is told to throw away his medication is sending a seriously confused message.

In my mind, a mental health professional (who is not a two-hatter) that sends a client to AA is passing the buck, hoping that the client will get help without wasting the professional's time. Tossing folks into the AA pool to sink or swim is not in keeping with being a "helping professional". It is quite the opposite of "first do no harm".

[Ray Smith]

I very much agree with the quote you've written above. I'm not arguing for the merits of AA these days, so much as I'm trying to suggest that some people like it and benefit from it. There are a lot of voices who will seemingly never be happy until the entire edifice is torn down, however. I just don't get this, and am prone to understand it as a reaction to people having been very unfortunately victimized by predators within AA (who are certainly there along with non-predators) and who have generalized the negative experience to the *entire* thing as though their own experience is the same thing as everyone else's experience. It comes across as one of those "The Lady Doth Protest too Much" Hamlet-esque sorts of things.

Many would be happy if us uppity people would just shut up and let the professionals continue to do what they've been doing. You'll get around to listening and treating us with a little respect eventually, right?

It's only been through assertiveness that changes are made.

It's not just the predators in the rooms, or the anti-medication faction, or the religious nature of the program, but the very core of the program that is harmful, it is accepting powerlessness. It is anti-therapeutic. People should be empowered in order to make healthy changes in their lives, not beaten into submission.

[Nightwatch]

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Edited December 13, 2011 by Nightwatch

[JulianP]

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Edited February 3, 2010 by JulianP
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[Guest ASchwartz]

Hi JP,

I do not agree with you about twelve step programs. However, I do agree that any knee jerk reaction to helping people is wrong, whether its AA or anything else.

Outside of that, AA and other programs have been helfpful to many people. I know, professionally and personally, many who have been helped by AA. This is separate and apart from so called "studies." In fact, outslde of the postings on the Internet, I have never been aware of such anger at AA. Nothing works for everyone and nothing is perfect. However, before AA there was noting to help those with addiction of any kind. There are many who owe their lives to AA and have expressed this to me in no uncertain terms.

By the way, my comments are in no way meant to dismiss those of you who had bad experiences and who do not like AA. Its just that your experiences (those who had bad experiences) are not the whole story.

Allan

[JulianP]

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Edited February 3, 2010 by JulianP
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[John Rutledge]

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Edited October 28, 2009 by John Rutledge

[Guest ASchwartz]

Dear JP,

You and I are going to disagree with each other on this issue of AA. The people I know and have know are more than a handful. They are very many. I do not know if you fully understand how down and out some people become. Perhaps you do and I do not mean to sound demeaning of you and your experience. I do not know your personal experience and I hope you never had to be homeless and living in the streets. Perhaps that did happen to you. I do know that the people I am speaking of were on the verge of death. There was nothing left for them. Disowned by their families and disowning their families, lost in a haze of alcohol and other drugs, they were in the streets, at the mercy of the elements, street predators, rats, cops, hungry and hopeless. They were at the end of the road. Many of these people die. They never come in for help and just perish, nameless and forever lost. A few manage to summon their last bit of energy and go to an AA meeting, dirty, smelly, hopeless, and there, they find a beginning. Those of us who are aware of this through our professional and personal lives remain mystified by the hostility to AA.

Let me be clear about my position:

I do not see AA as a cult or a religion.

I do not see AA as the permanent or only answer. For many it is a start. Lots of people move on to other forms of help, especially psychotherapy.

Mine is not a "knee jerk" reaction to AA and I in no way reject other forms of help.

But, you need to realize is that, other than being arrested for public drunkeness or disturbing the peace, there is nothing else but AA at that point for this particular type of person who is also known as a "skid row bum." I do not like the term but it does seem descriptive for a certain type of person.

What I wish for is more of a respectful dialogue on this topic rather than the type of all out war that the issue seems to raise for some people on the Internet. I am not implying that that is true of you or everyone but it is true of some.

I await your thoughts and the thoughts of others, as well.

Allan