Why is it so difficult to accept things we cannot change?

[Resolute]

No I have read Eckhard Tolle, malign, but I've read a lot of stuff where the ego is discussed like Alan Watts, Ken Wilbur Ram Dass, etcetera, and yes they all say what you said that ego is ego regardless of whether the person is a narcissist or suicidal.

My attempts to transcend my ego brought me to the threshold of madness! Ok that was overly dramatic but it was unsettling.

looks like you've got some serious competition malign.

[mts]

No I have not read Eckhard Tolle, malign, but I've read a lot of stuff where the ego is discussed like Alan Watts, Ken Wilbur Ram Dass, etcetera, and yes they all say what you said that ego is ego regardless of whether the person is a narcissist or suicidal.

My attempts to transcend my ego brought me to the threshold of madness! Ok that was overly dramatic but it was unsettling.

Do tell, what happened?

I've tried as Eckhart Tolle suggests, to be present at all times. The thing is this guy - when he first started "being present" - just sat on a park bench for two years.

I thought his book (the power of now) was a good read though.

[mts]

The problem with distortions I see is this. We can understand that other people have their own distortions, but the thing is people get unhappy if they don't get the conflicts they desire and will go out of their way to make you uncomfortable and get a rise out of you, and involve you in their ego wars.

What happens is that you can be as calm as you like but once someone involves you in their game they will start to try blaming you and separate themselves from you.

It's not just as simple as saying "I'll be peaceful and honest and everything will be ok" sometimes we have to fight. Look at nazi germany.

People want to walk all over you, they enjoy it. And you have to stand up yourself and fight, because we live in a culture and political system that functions on the basis of greed where people want to step on you to get ahead.

Just my opinion...I welcome more positive ones.

[IrmaJean]

The neat thing is that even when some theory does contradict, there can still be something to glean out of both sides. I don't think there is one "right" or "wrong" way to look at things; I feel it's more about what fits best for the individual. We are such complex beings. I like psychology and find it all very interesting.

I love Eckhard Tolle and was really blown away by his books when I first read them. It's an entirely different way to look at and approach life. I've always enjoyed the idea of universal connection, so this part was especially compelling to me. If nothing else, reading the books can really stretch the mind, if one is open to different possibilities.

Mts, I feel that sometimes people who struggle with their own stuff can be manipulative and fighting back or being overly defensive may only feed into the manipulation. I understand what you are saying about the need to assert oneself at times too. This is a struggle of mine in day to day life. I think that sometimes the best way to take care of oneself is to put up a boundary when that kind of behavior is occurring in another. Not always easy.

People can behave in greedy ways, true. Are you also able to see positive traits in humanity as well?

[mts]

Mts, I feel that sometimes people who struggle with their own stuff can be manipulative and fighting back or being overly defensive may only feed into the manipulation. I understand what you are saying about the need to assert oneself at times too. This is a struggle of mine in day to day life. I think that sometimes the best way to take care of oneself is to put up a boundary when that kind of behavior is occurring in another. Not always easy.

People can behave in greedy ways, true. Are you also able to see positive traits in humanity as well?

Yes I am able. It's society/culture/politics that I hate, not individual people. I used to be a bad person, so I know exactly how one gets there. This makes me more forgiving, but at the same time if you forgive too much, you forget that people are quite capable of using it against you, and what happens is that you put your heart into making allowances for people they rip it out when you're most vulnerable.

Sigh...I'm sorry. I'm having a bad day.

I like what you said about boundaries.

P.S. Eckhart Tolle's book gave me a good feeling too; I've kind of forgotten it though.

[Victimorthecrime]

Do tell, what happened?

Well to encapsulate it, I think what I managed to do was to damage my ego rather than transcend it. A fair amount of meditation and mindfulness resulted in my being more present but in a dull and pointless way.

Eventually something out of the ordinary would happen that would require me to respond and to plan like a household repair or giving a presentation at work...and my palace of serenity would come crashing down requiring me to hastily revive and reassemble my discarded ego in order to have a point of view for a future event.

[mts]

Well to encapsulate it, I think what I managed to do was to damage my ego rather than transcend it. A fair amount of meditation and mindfulness resulted in my being more present but in a dull and pointless way.

Eventually something out of the ordinary would happen that would require me to respond and to plan like a household repair or giving a presentation at work...and my palace of serenity would come crashing down requiring me to hastily revive and reassemble my discarded ego in order to have a point of view for a future event.

That sounds like what happened to me after I read Eckhart Tolle. I think what I did take from that mindset is that being present is useful, but not at the ignorance of personality and duties, etc. Only at times when you'd otherwise be needlessly worrying.

What good is it to be "still" and "present" when everyone else is so full of energy and life. Echkart Tolle says and I'm paraphrasing "people who are present will naturally repel people who are not present"...

Great.

[Victimorthecrime]

That sounds like what happened to me after I read Eckhart Tolle. I think what I did take from that mindset is that being present is useful, but not at the ignorance of personality and duties, etc. Only at times when you'd otherwise be needlessly worrying.

What good is it to be "still" and "present" when everyone else is so full of energy and life. Echkart Tolle says and I'm paraphrasing "people who are present will naturally repel people who are not present"...

Everyone is present but some don't realize it. I have no idea if that is true or not but you won't catch me in your dualistic thinking Mr. Tolle!

[mts]

Actually now that I've read it again, it was about love/relationships. I feel bad for saying that now, it's a bit unfair for me to (mis)quote small passages from his book which might not give a good overall impression when other people haven't read it.

Here is the quote anyway since I misquoted it:

If you are consistently or at least predominantly present in your relationship, this will be the greatest challenge for your partner. They will not be able to tolerate your presence for very long and stay unconscious. If they are ready, they will walk through the door that you opened for them and join you in that state. If they are not, you will separate like oil and water.

[Resolute]

The neat thing is that even when some theory does contradict, there can still be something to glean out of both sides. I don't think there is one "right" or "wrong" way to look at things; I feel it's more about what fits best for the individual. We are such complex beings. I like psychology and find it all very interesting.

my point doesn't seem to be getting across. if i say there is always "one right or wrong" (i prefer to use the word "ideal" or "best" instead of "right" because i believe in a sort of "relative correctness", so there can be an ideal path, but also another option that's second best, and one that's third best, and so on, until you reach the worst possible option. and the same principle applies to "wrong" except in reverse) i mean after taking all characteristics of a person, all his/her circumstances, all variables, etc. into consideration. of course we humans don't have the ability to account for every possible detail, but like i said, someone who's able to, is also able to determine -with absolute certainty- "right" or "best" or "ideal", as well as "wrong" or "worst" for any individual in any given circumstances, and under any conditions, regardless of the complexities.

this is simply logic, not opinion.

[IrmaJean]

I think it's okay that we don't think the same about this. I respect your view.

I can say that there have been times in my life when the "worst case scenario" did play out and that very experience then led me down a different and ultimately very positive path.

Wishing you well, resolute.

[Resolute]

thanks irma. you're great, as usual.

wishing you well also.

[Victimorthecrime]

Just speaking for myself I think I have really come to the conclusion that when I feel well physically I can modulate my depression and anxiety to a reasonable degree. When I am rested, alert, energetic, buoyant, free of aches and pains, I can immerse myself in activity that yields positive change, growth, accomplishment.

When I feel lousy physically, my mood plummets. Today I have had a sinus headache all fucking day and I feel like sticking my head directly into a band saw.

[Victimorthecrime]

The past is past. The previous 5 seconds are as gone as 50 years ago.

The future does not exist. Now some might say "yes but it will someday". No it won't. By the time the future gets here it won't be the future anymore. The future is now. Now doesn't exist because as soon as you say 'now' it is already in the past.

So what is it? It is what it is. Now do you see?

[Resolute]

are you saying that we don't exist? from what i know, nonexistence is completely painless, unlike this hellhole.

[Victimorthecrime]

What I am trying to do is narrow down the focus to where it can do some good or at least "feel right". Doctrines, concepts and labels can get in the way of real experience, real perception. They block out the light and take up the space needed for growth. Reality refuses to get caught in the fishnet of concepts. Instead of defining it I want to point at it and let people come to their own conclusions about what does or does not exist.

[Resolute]

What I am trying to do is narrow down the focus to where it can do some good or at least "feel right". Doctrines, concepts and labels can get in the way of real experience, real perception. They block out the light and take up the space needed for growth. Reality refuses to get caught in the fishnet of concepts. Instead of defining it I want to point at it and let people come to their own conclusions about what does or does not exist.

there's that damn growth, again. if i ever run into "growth", in person, you really don't wanna know the reality of what i'd do to it.

p.s., same with "development" or "progress". i'd make an example of all three.

[Victimorthecrime]

Yeah there is probably a better word. It's hard to talk about this shit w/o sounding either didactic or "hippy dippy airy fairy". I think 'freedom' might be a better word. Growth connotes some kind of achievement and that's not what I am talking about.

[Resolute]

What I am trying to do is narrow down the focus to where it can do some good or at least "feel right". Doctrines, concepts and labels can get in the way of real experience, real perception. They block out the light and take up the space needed for growth freedom. Reality refuses to get caught in the fishnet of concepts. Instead of defining it I want to point at it and let people come to their own conclusions about what does or does not exist.

how can you point at it if it's not in the past, present, or future?

[Victimorthecrime]

Calling it 'now' is the problem. It's the label that's the problem, not the reality of it. Certain things in life you just have to "get". They don't lend themselves to analytical thinking. Some people call it "seeing with spiritual eyes" or awakening. You probably think that's the biggest load of bullshit you have ever heard in your life and that is A-ok. I really mean that. I am not trying to put forth an argument or win debate or convince anyone of anything. Just sorting out my thoughts and sharing what works for me.

[Resolute]

for what it's worth, i'm glad that you're less destroyed (broken/dysfunctional) than klingsor and i.

[Victimorthecrime]

Thanks. I hope things get better for you guys and everyone here, even the folks I might occasionally bump heads with.

[IrmaJean]

there's that damn growth, again. if i ever run into "growth", in person, you really don't wanna know the reality of what i'd do to it.

p.s., same with "development" or "progress". i'd make an example of all three.

Res, if a word brings up a strong response in me, I know that says something about me and not so much about the word itself. Does the concept of "growth" feel threatening in some way? Or if it brings up feelings of anger, maybe it helps to know what that's about?

[Resolute]

Res, if a word brings up a strong response in me, I know that says something about me and not so much about the word itself.

the problem is with the whole concept of growth, not the word itself (and certainly not with me). we can blame billions of individuals for the infinite number of problems in this world, or we can blame one thing, such as existence, or the universe/god. i think my approach is much more direct and efficient.

Does the concept of "growth" feel threatening in some way?

me, threatened? don't make me laugh.

Or if it brings up feelings of anger, maybe it helps to know what that's about?

i'll tell you what it's about. it's about being brought into existence, and forced to "grow/develop/progress", without one's consent. i was perfectly fine before i came to exist, and i had absolutely no need for growth, or anything else.

[IrmaJean]

it's about being brought into existence, and forced to "grow/develop/progress", without one's consent. i was perfectly fine before i came to exist, and i had absolutely no need for growth, or anything else.

You expressed yourself well here. I understand better now, thank you.

Do you ever think your existence here in this life touches other lives? I mean, look what has happened here on the forum since you returned. Your presence and openness led to others talking more and suddenly we have had more activity, new members, old members returning, more people reaching out for help...I see this as very positive.

Take care and I hope your day goes okay.