Does therapy help?

[David O]

I didn't think it relevant until it was assumed I spoke from ignorance or lack of experience.

Sasquatch, if I can speak honestly-- this was one of the first things you mentioned about yourself (that you were a therapist at one time), which is the reason I stopped responding on this thread after my 1st post (#11). I assumed, incorrectly or not, that this was an intellectual exercise for you and opted out by responding to your initial post at an intellectual and not a soulful level. My sense was further confirmed in subsequent posts as I noticed a certain sterility and hermetically sealed approach to your writings.

In reading the opening post of this thread, my initial thought centered on a statement made by Swiss psychiatrist Carl Jung about his frustration when working with clients who intellectualized and analyzed the therapeutic process as opposed to being engaged fully and authentically in it-- a point raised by Irmajean in post #14.

One of the first things I ask a cleint who has seen several therapist with unsucsessful outcomes is: "What about our time together will be different than your previous therapists?" This question places responsibility on both of us, but more so on clients who shop around, or have repeated therapy failures, or who have difficulty in therapeutic relationships, or....

Sasquatch, my intent in saying this is not to be hurtful, insensitive, calloused or even disrespectful, it is only to point out what I felt then and even more so now- and this may be why you have yet to fully experience the depth, genuineness and bonding aspects of the therapeutic relationship.

David

[Symora]

That is also what I was feeling when reading your posts Sasquatch. I get a sense that you 'study' psychotherapy, much as a student would study a subject, the profs, the approaches, the schools of thought. So it feels like you are standing outside the process. It's about the attitude you go in with. I get a sense that you like the intellectual debate, so you are not really involved at a soul level, which is often where mental illness has it's roots imho.

Do you remember talking to your parents as an adolescent - or was that just me??? They would talk to you, give you advice, try to make you understand, but you did not want to hear what they had to say because the were mom or dad, so you basically understood nothing of the wisdom they were trying to impart... I think it can be like that with psychotherapy. If you come in with a certain attitude of judgement about the message giver, then you can't really hear what they have to say...

That has traditionally been my issue I think, not being humble enough to understand that I have to truly listen, and 'apply' (my personal struggle) the lessons in order for things to change... I'm stubborn and overly independent, I don't like to be told what to do so I often don't have the right attitude coming in... Maybe the fact that the first few were real duds did not help either...

[Sasquatch]

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[IrmaJean]

When I went back to reread, I found I had misinterpreted your statement "as a therapist" and thought you were writing from the perspective of your own therapist. The joys of the internet...

I often wonder how much sense of a person's state of mind I can actually get from a computer screen, but what I feel from you is that you are disheartened.

I'm a very hopeful and optimistic type of person who believes in the power of human connection. Therapy can really work sometimes. The success of mine was definitely centered on the strength of the bond between myself and my therapist. There is a connection which is about simple understanding. He uses an interpersonal style which was very well-suited to my needs. It came from the sense that I was interacting with a real, live, warm, flawed human being...just like myself... that made it easier for me to allow my own flaws, my own doubts, my own fears, my own vulnerability... Once I felt his being human, I was then ready to let myself be human with him. The journey for me in therapy was so powerful that I actually want to one day become a therapist myself. There is a part of me that wishes for everyone to feel loved and accepted...just as they are. I have love inside me that I'd really like to offer to others, so that maybe for even just a brief period of time they can feel emotionally held, accepted, heard and understood for the unique individuals that they are. A bit of a dreamer perhaps, but there you have it.

There are people out there who care, Sasquatch. Strong and and meaningful connection can happen even on the limited dance floor of the therapy room. But I honestly think one has to allow oneself to believe in life's potentials, let go and fly into the light...and become very much involved with the process. Resistance to do so might also stem from fears of facing one's life difficulties. Sometimes the best in life comes out of having faith...faith in ourselves...faith in others...faith in hoping and believing in what life has to offer...

Also, I think, from a therapist's perspective, you'd want to gauge your feelings about any particular session as a sign of something specific within the interactions. Feeling bored? What does this mean? Yalom wrote one case story about a client who bored him to death. He discovered that she was trying to entertain him and not really giving of herself, thus creating his boredom during sessions with her. Being aware of yourself and your reactions within the relationship would really be key, I would think.

There is also reflection. If a client doesn't believe in the genuineness of the therapist or in the basic goodness of their own self, it may be difficult for the therapist to give this aspect of themselves to the client. It works both ways. Feel the potential, see the potential in another, then that person reflects it back to you and you feel it from within. I recognized in myself and then in my former therapist a capacity for tenderness which he then reflected back so I could one again feel my own. Recognizing it in another leads to self-recognition. I had to believe in it and so did he, so it really is a two-way street in this respect. And this works vice-verse as well, therapist to client.

I know I got off on a tangent there, Sasquatch, but the point being...you have to believe, allow and engage or it won't work. A good therapist helps as well. Don't give up hope, Sasquatch.

[David O]

I'm sorry you find me sterile and lacking in passion when discussing this subject which has a great deal of relevance for me and about which I feel very strongly. I used to believe in psychotherapy too.

Sasquatch, it seems as others are trying to convince you that therapy works while you "argue" that it doesn't. This left me wondering what your purpose was/is in coming here... it doesn't seem to be for seeking help or to help others, it doesn't seem to be for reaching out and being touched at a soulful level as you indicate is the missing ingredient in therapy, it doesn't seem to be to connect with others in a meaningful way or in a way that creates greater meaning for you.

This is not a double bind question either (Bateson, not Erickson), it is a genuine effort to understand (absent the need for intellectual repartee).

David

[IrmaJean]

I have also wondered about your motivation in this, Sasquatch. Is there some part of you that hopes you are wrong about this? Or perhaps you wished to express your sadness about your beliefs? Something else?

[Sasquatch]

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[Sasquatch]

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[Sasquatch]

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[IrmaJean]

Well, you are certainly extremely deep and very interesting. I am very impressed with your writing ability.

When the past is understood, when the emotions from it are faced and heard, healing is possible. It's true that our day to day existence is full of reminders from our past, but this is what makes us unique and what makes us alive, gives us our own history. It's our story. The world is full of imperfect and flawed human beings. That doesn't make them less worthy of love. Abrading your life might be easier, but it also robs you of the potential joy in it. With love, there may also be pain eventually, but this serves as a reminder that we care deeply and that we are alive. A pristine pearl, though absent of pain, is empty of feeling, empty of joy, empty of love. The scars simply mean that we have lived and we have loved. And this is a gift, in its own way. Please do not give up.

[Guest ASchwartz]

Hi Sasquatch,

I must say that I am also intrigued by the fact that you are a therapist and by the fact that you seem to have kept it covered, even if you may have mentioned it earlier.

No, I do not believe that you are "sterile." What I would say is this: That you present an "intellectual front." Now, of course I have never met you this could easily be wrong. Here, in the forum, what you write seems to be intellectual in nature. Having said that, I will add that you do make it clear that you suffer, that you suffer from depression and that it's getting worse.

I do not know if the others will agree with me and they do not have to but I suspect that all of us are attempting to convince you that therapy does work so that you can get the help you need.

Sasquatch, I am not holding myself up as any paragon of therapeutic virtue or perfection. However, I must tell you that I do not feel bored when I am in my office and am working with someone. I also do not feel false or fake. My concern is real. However, I also have no wish to take on the interests of the patients I work with. Lastly, I really do not see an "industry" in psychotherapy. If you are referring to medications, yes, there is an industry and its based on making huge profits. But, psychotherapy? I fail to see it.

At this time, are you doing anything to get help for your depression?

Allan

[Sasquatch]

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[malign]

Removing the useless and toxic sounds like a really good idea.

For me, though, when depressed, that policy, rigorously applied, might lead to what might be called self-removal behavior ...

How sure are you of your judgment in large-scale matters, when depressed?

[IrmaJean]

My thought is that there is something more around the the idea of therapy not working in this for you than just that, Sasquatch. Perhaps something about your beliefs in human nature and life in general, an inability to ease suffering (of both yourself and others) that leaves you feeling sad and defeated. This is only speculation on my part. I'm not a professional. You hold the answers. I sense your sadness and am very sorry you are feeling this way.

Getting well would be the goal and however you get there doesn't matter...with therapy or without...so long as you find your way. My intention was not to convince you to go back to therapy, but more of hoping you would believe in the ability to connect with others and have healthy relationships which are rewarding. And that all of us have the power to heal and move forward in life. I hope you find your way.

[Symora]

When I was in my twenties and thirties I thought a lot of dark and complicated thoughts, I was a sceptic on most things, a pessimist for sure, I saw no more value to myself than an ant, and I did a lot of studying of various religious schools of thought because I felt it had something to do with my spirit. I was in a maelstorm trying to finding an internal place where I could feel comfortable.... I suffered from intense depression and manic behaviour 2 weeks a month, and the other two weeks I would be a relatively normal human being trying to repair the damage of the first two weeks...

Anyway, at one point I was confronted with a decision as to whether I was going to believe in a Higher Power. I struggled with this for years. During this time I studied people around me, especially my grandmother who had great faith. I noticed that people with Faith seemed happier, found more comfort inside themselves, never felt so alone, were often more optimistic. And then I looked that the people without faith and I often found they were more frightened of life, less optimistic, more cynical. Now this is not a scientific study, I am aware of that, but it led me to the conclusion that I should Believe, just because it seems like a more helpful option. Either way nobody knows anyway, but to have Faith offers more hope, more joy, a calm place inside to go rest.

I am not proning Faith here, although I have found it of comfort. What I am trying to say is that sometimes you can choose to not analyse why, or could, or should, and just accept that life needs to go on and how can I try to see things differently so that I feel more hopeful... I come from a place of knowing depression deeply, so I do understand that this is a struggle.

Analysing is good, but a one point it becomes mental masturbation, at least I felt it was for me. You just gotta relax and find something or someone who can inject some hopeful thoughts in there. And then you have to water it regularly until it grows roots and eventually bud into the light. I get the sense that your identity is quite tied to your rebelious and dark self - as is does for many of us with long lasting depression... You can nonetheless choose to shift your perspective, to intentionally choose to give more power to some things and less to others. It may mean that you have to let go of the overanalysing though? Is that something you are willing to explore?

[Sasquatch]

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[IrmaJean]

Certainly you would want to meet your own expectations, so this is great.

No people with whom I have to be something or someone else

There are some out there who would accept you as you are, though I understand this has not been your experience. I think that when we connect with others, we often connect with different aspects of ourselves as well. I don't sense you as being emotionless or "dark", Sasquatch. Your certainty about your situation feels more as if you have resigned yourself to a certain fate based on past experiences. Not all relationships are toxic, Sasquatch. There seems so much to share in the mind you have. I personally find you quite compelling.

Very cute avatar, BTW.

[David O]

Sasquatch,

I wasn't paying attention and at some point, you gave us some critical information that I've largely ignored- information that I'm wondering if it has lead you to this place. At one point you mentioned a heart condition, and you also have a thread regarding your condition of hypospadias, which has brought you great pain your entire life.

While I do understand pain, cruelty, suffering and torture very well (spent 14 years living under a brutal dictatorship), I won't pretend to understand what your life must be like. I know, from personal experience, that my pain was such that I needed to build this strong scaffolding, supported by H framed steel beams, just to sustain myself. In the process, I also had to approach life in a reasoned, intellectual and distant manner b/c to become vulnerable also meant that the scab would be pulled off. I memorized the wisdom of Eugene O'Neill: "Why am I afraid to dance, I who love music and rhythm and grace and song?" Why was I born without a skin, Oh God? That I must wear armor in order to touch and to be touched."

In graduate school we were expected to be in therapy from every possible type of therapy school, so 9 years later and 13 therapist past, I soon learned some lessons, but not before I went through years of pessimism about therapy. The therapist didn't understand pain and suffering as I had experienced it, they knew nothing of my life and I became somewhat of a curiosity given my life experience and complex PTSD (which I still suffer from). I complained repeatedly to the profs about the inadequacy of the therapists and therapy process for my issues. It soon dawned on me that those that can't dance are often the ones that complain the most about how the music sucks!

So I begin to wonder how your heart condition and hypospadias may be affecting how you view therapy...? I'm also wondering how the UK's stoicism in the face of obstacles may be a factor here?

[Sasquatch]

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[David O]

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[Sasquatch]

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[David O]

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[Sasquatch]

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[JulianP]

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[IrmaJean]

If someone is drowning, they certainly won't jump right out of the water the very moment a lifevest is thrown. They will reach the shore by swimming and struggling to swim, stroke by stroke, until eventually they plant their feet on solid ground. Positive movements come in small waves and one must battle all of the currents until one gains the upper hand. It is never too late.

You have said that you once hoped you were wrong about this. If you know now with 100% certainty that you are correct about your beliefs, what then is the motivation to express your thoughts here? Maybe you still hope...

I don't think you're a corpse, Sasquatch. You've been hurt, maybe even betrayed, but there's still life in you. But you have to allow yourself to bleed in order to heal.

Talking doesn't have to be too little, too late. Sometimes you have to let yourself feel and risk pain to dig your way out. None of that can happen if you don't allow yourself the chance to trust and hope.