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This probably gonna get me in trouble but...


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Guest ASchwartz

Hi John,

I read your post and am puzzled as to why you fear that people will be angry at you? I see no reason for anger at you and understand that you had to get things off of your chest.

As for the religious theme in your post, people vary widely as to whether or not they believe in God and to what degree. There are plenty of homes where children learn to believe in God and there are some where it does not happen.

From my point of view as a psychotherapist and mental health specialist, it is important for people to take initiative in their lives and not wait for something to happen. That is why I propose that you speak directly to the woman you suspect is your mother and ask her directly instead of spending any more time waiting.

As to accepting gifts, I expect that you understand that it is easier to help other people than to help one's own self. People will give you very sound and sincere advice while having no idea of how to help themselves.

I doubt very much that anyone here is angry at you. Plus, you have proven to me to be a really good guy and I, for one, really enjoy having you here in this community.

Allan :(

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HI Jetliner

I enjoyed reading your post. And I understand you were venting, we all need to do that at some point. And, it is ok for people to have different views and share them. I think you shared your views in a very mature and intelligent way.

I myself am agnostic and I believe in "me' and yes there was "something" that created this universe. Maybe because I was brought up with absolutley no religion so I don't have the years behind me to master the belief so to speak. Yes that might not be working for me right now but I don't think the answer to my problems is following a religion.

I did though get married in a catholic church because of my husband and his religious beliefs. I was asked to convert and I refused but one of the requirements was that I was to raise my children catholic. It was a hard decision but I wanted to give my children something I never had, a chance to learn a religion and then at least they were somewhat prepared for accepting religion unlike me and that they can divert anyway they feel neccesary for them at anytime in their life.

I on the other hand felt I was some how jipped of that but I think I did turn out very well as a human being with all of the right moral values of life .....

Later in life as an adult I tried to learn and accept my baptismal religion of Lutheran but I could not grasp it for some reason and now I just accept that I am here and I have control of "me". Like I said it isn't always working but I never once thought about religion as a way to change that.

My belief may not be perfect, but what I value is the quality of a person I am and I see a lot of people here in this community struggling with the same, if not more struggles of life and each and everyone of us are understanding and supportive no matter what our religious beliefs are or how they "cope" with these life struggles...


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Can I venture to suggest that your frequent expectation that you're going to get into trouble might be linked to that very self-esteem issue you're writing about? You might get yourself into a debate, but not trouble.

The difficulty with not trusting until the trust is earned is, how do you take the first step? I mean, the candidate trustee might fail the very first test, and if you've risked anything at all on it, you're still hurt. {Of course, if you haven't risked anything at all, it wasn't much of a test.} To me, trust is what it takes to make that first step; what is earned needs another name, perhaps "respect". But I'm also aware of the slippery nature of words, so I'll leave that there.

My more important point is about feeling abandoned. Your mother is human, and had very little chance to get to know the person that she gave up for adoption. For all you know, it might have been a mistake to do so, a mistake she's still making, in not making contact now. In other words, it might reflect more on her judgment than on anything about you. Or, it might have been a necessity, for her, but one which is no reflection on you, certainly not on the person you've become since. Perhaps she couldn't have afforded to feed you, or something.

So, perhaps it's not a timing issue at all, in this case. Maybe there's some other lesson to be learned from all this. One of them might be that a person's worth comes from how they treat others, not whether their parents ever realize what a treasure they are.

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I loved your post. It was very thought provoking and caused me to think of and remember things that I haven't given a lot of thought to lately.

I don't know all the circumstances about you and your mum so, if I may, I would like to stay with the 'religious' theme in your post for now.

I'm not a religious person but I am a spiritual person. How often have you heard that lately?

I read up on Non-Religious Spirituality. And yes it is out there and it's taking a hold.

My beliefs system is based on books like The Master Key System, Conversations With God and A New Earth. I say this because checking out these books might give you a little insight into where I'm coming from.

I believe we create our own reality from the thoughts we entertain. Every thought, good and bad, is creative and tends to become a material thing. We could well have thought ourselves into existence. I'll go a step further and say that we could well be our own God.

We get what we think about the most. Think lack and limitation and lack and limitation is what we get. Worry over debt and all you get is more debt. Think instead of positive ways to clear your debt and you have no more debt. I have no debts, I live a simple, comfortable life.

I have some strange and wonderful thoughts and ideas and 'they' tell me I have a mental disorder. I'm out of step with them, they don't understand me so I must be wrong - or ill. How many of you have been made to feel like that?

When trying to explain my experiences I have often said, "It's like God but it's more than God." Of course I mean more than the God of the bible. And it's the reason why so many people are leaving the church and returning to God. Because they are learning the truth. They are discovering that whatever 'It' is, it's real! And you don't have to go to church one day a week to experience it.

A couple of thousand years ago the Roman and Greek empires had Zeus, today the Zeus and all the other Gods of this long gone religion are called 'myths' and in another couple of thousand years, maybe sooner, our view of God will most likely have died out and become a 'myth' also.

The point is even if in the future we are worshiping a giant potato head as the supreme creator it will still be the same 'thing' - by any other name a rose will still smell as sweet. And by any other name 'God' will still be as powerful. It is still the same 'thing' no matter what you call it, or how you envision it.

This thing... This 'God' is within you. It is within all of us. call it what you will, visualise it anyway you want. Call it 'He' call it 'She' call it 'It'. It makes no difference it is the same thing no matter what name you give it. Even if you say you don't believe in it, it doesn't matter - that won't make it go away. It is a part of you, a part of all of us, a part of the whole.

Turned into a bit of a rant. Sorry. :(

However this thought is not new.

The Master Key System by Charles F Haanel was writen and banned by the Church around 1933 and hidden away for decades.


The pieces below are taken from -

As A Man Thinketh by James Allen (1864-1912)

Thought in the mind hath made us. What we are

By thought we wrought and built. If a man's mind

Hath evil thoughts, pain comes on him as comes

The wheel the ox behind . . . If one endure in purity

of thought joy follows him as his own shadow - sure.

As a being of Power, Intelligence, and Love, and the lord of his own thoughts, man holds the key to every situation, and contains within himself that transforming and regenerative agency by which he may make himself what he wills.

You will be what you will to be;

Let failure find its false content

In that poor word, "environment,"

But spirit scorns it, and is free.

It masters time, it conquers space;

It cows that boastful trickster, Chance,

And bids the tyrant Circumstance

Uncrown, and fill a servant's place.

The human Will, that force unseen,

The offspring of a deathless Soul,

Can hew a way to any goal,

Though walls of granite intervene.

Be not impatient in delay,

But wait as one who understands;

When spirit rises and commands,

The gods are ready to obey.

The vision that you glorify in your mind, the Ideal that you enthrone in your heart - this you will build your life by, this you will become.


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John, undoubtedly you write beautifully. And I agree that you are a treasure and a gift. And each word that you offer in your writings is a gift in and of itself. So it is always a pleasure and a learning experience to read anything which you have written. It's a way of knowing more about you. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

You've received some excellent wisdom from the others. My brain seems fairly non-functional at the moment, unfortunately. I apologize for this, but wanted to offer my support to you through this. I hope you will check back in very soon and let us know how you are feeling.

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If it's okay with you I'll just let my thoughts flow too for a moment.

First and foremost, people are not flawed. People are just people - human beings.

Each of us is complete just as we are, just as God made us, just as we thought ourselves to be.

No one is perfect, no one has to be. Perfect compared to what? We are simply being human.

It isn't God who accepts us. It is us who accept God. And, where we are just human, s/he is just God.

I don't think this thread is has generated any squabbles. I think this thread is wonderfully thought provoking and is capable of opening up a pretty decent debate.

It's obvious we are not all the same. We each have our own views and opinions and I for one love sharing my thoughts on specific subjects from time to time. And it looks to me like you do too. Please don't view my post as an attack. I'm simply sharing my views as you are sharing yours. And like you, I welcome comment. It's healthy and healing to have our view of things discussed, it helps keep us grounded. I certainly hope you will continue to 'let your thoughts flow'.

I'm certainly with you on your view of 'religion' and 'churches'. And we are not alone in these thoughts. That's why so many are being turned into bingo halls.

There's a quote, can't remember who said it for the moment but it goes something like this. "If we don't go within we go without." I believe the journey inward is the most important journey anyone can ever makes. That is where the truth lies, that is where God is.

"... using LOGIC and reasoning to find the truth."

It's not always necessary to need logic and reason when it comes to what we believe in. Some people believe in the strangest things. Who are we to say they are wrong? I'm not saying you're wrong. It's just that in my book logic and reason don't always cut it.

I don't see God as a specific being; an old man sitting on a throne in heaven. Nor do I see 'him' as some abstract idea that we create in our minds to help explain things we don't understand.

If you do believe in God and you have read your bible you will know that that God gave you free will, that God doesn't do anything for you. Like the parent father, he left you to make your own mistakes and to learn from them.

As for finding him. You have found him, you just failed to recognise him. And there is evidence but you failed to see that too because your view of God needs a little fine tuning.

You don't have to search for 'him' s/he's right there within you. And while you work to fine tune things, you lose nothing. Tune into 'him' and you gain everything.

There's a gland in the centre of the brain called the pineal gland some researchers and mystics refer to it as "the seat of the soul." Some believe that that is where our 'religious' experiences come from and that might also be how we are all connected to each other and a higher consciousness.

In Buddhism we are encouraged to find our Buddha nature; the God within. And in doing so we learn to trust that there is a higher power that has our best interests at heart.

You don't babble, you flow pretty good. I look forward to reading more.

Forgive me but the quote at the foot of your posts is very negative and very damaging. "Remember those who are having troubles, as if you were having the same troubles." If this is what you believe, you are opening a door and inviting other people’s problems to become your problems.

Taking onboard other people’s troubles, like the sin eater, isn’t the way to go. It’s more about what we take off than it is about what we take on. Simplifying our lives and letting go of everything we no longer need or want makes us stronger and helps us to help others.

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Hope it's OK if I get in on the "thought flowing." :) I may be on the same path as Jetliner on the path to trouble with this one. :eek:

Bluerose... I agree with several of your points. I think you are right when you say people are just people. We are human. But.... I believe we are flawed. Only God is perfect and even though I believe we were made in God's image, the very free will given to us by God is the will that makes us human. We make mistakes, we learn from them like you said but that's all part of our flawed nature.

It isn't God who accepts us. It is us who accept God.

This is hard for me to get my head around because I do believe it is God who accepts us. God, our creator made us as one of Gods children. God the parent loves us. "I have called you by name, you are mine, I love you." To paraphrase a verse in Isaiah. I believe God will accept us and love us whether we accept God or not. I think about those in my life whom I love. There is NOTHING they could do that would make me stop loving them. Sometimes a little distance is needed but my heart never stops loving even those who don't continue or don't want to love me. I think God is like that too. I think some of our actions and decisions hurt God but God will be waiting with open arms and will not abandon us no matter what we do. Even if we turn our backs on God.

"Remember those who are having troubles, as if you were having the same troubles."

I actually really like this quote, jetliner. I don't think it's necessarily telling us to take on other people's problems. I think it's a call to be empathetic toward others in order to understand their hurts and difficulties. It implies, to me, treating others with kindness and compassion and I believe in treating all I come in contact with that way. But, even if I thought that is what it meant. I would gladly take on the problems of those I care about if it meant lightening their load for awhile and helping them through something they are struggling with. And, who knows, maybe by doing that, the problem isn't a problem anymore.

I guess that's enough babble from me....

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Hi John

Well this is probably nothing to do with anything, but I happen to like your signiture quote. Its a gentle reminder that we are not alone in the pain that we feel. That there are others also hurting and in need of understanding and comfort.

But thats just my interpretation, I could be wrong. not sure really, but I like it. It encourages me to put my pain aside, and think of others.

yeah thats kinda all I wanted to say.

take care


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No one is getting into trouble. I don't expect anyone to agree with my views. If we all agreed there would be nothing for us to discuss. I still don't see people as flawed just different. Not everyone sees God as perfect, many people blame God for everything that goes wrong in their lives. I respect your beliefs and have no problem with them.

There is something extraordinarily powerful in Truly Understanding what it means to walk a mile in some else's shoes.

I like your quote a lot. Remember, we are just sharing our views and our thoughts on each others posts, we don't have to agree with each other. It's more fun and enlightening this way. I hope you’ll share some more.

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Jetliner (John),

I hope you didn't take offence at my post. Free flowing thought can sometimes get us into trouble. Okay, you see people as flawed and I don't. It's just a difference of opinion.

Well I'm certainly up for discussion. And I've never had any discussion or debate I was involved in end in a blood bath. I recognise that we are all different and I respect others views and beliefs very much.

I express my views as a way of letting the other person know where I'm coming from. Reading about their views and beliefs lets me know where they are coming from. And I think that can sometimes set the ground for some deep and meaningful discussions.

I've had my share of being thought ignorant and stupid but being prepared to listen and share is a great start for any friendly discussion concerning views, opinions and beliefs. We are each entitle to our view of the world and we are entitled to share that. No two people are the same the world over. Recognising that is what allows us to share without blood baths.

Great thread by the way.

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Hi John,

First off I confess I haven't yet read all your posts, but my eyes are weak and they get tired easily! But I wanted to address what you said early on about the idea of there being no God the thing that causes mental illness or whatever (not an exact quote but that's what I got out of it).

I'm pretty much an atheist. I do believe there's more to the universe, to life, to consciousness than we understand, so I'm not "materialistic" in my beliefs (ie I believe there's more to the world than our basic 5 senses can apprehend), but I do not believe there's some humanoid "Jealous God" up there who cares whether you wear the right underwear or cover your head or pray a certain number of times a day.

I have always felt myself to be a very 'spiritual' person though, and I tried various religions, but the rules always felt silly and legalistic to me, and there was always so much social intrigue going on, stuff I wasn't able to deal with, so I am not a member of any religion these days. I 'pray' to what I call the 'universe' but my personal belief is that it's sinful (to use a religious term) to ask for trivial things. My very fundamentalist Christian mother-in-law made a big to-do for my son about praying to Jesus to watch their bicycles when they went into a store!! That seemed so blasphemous to me, but I held my tongue. I know she finds comfort in her religion, so I respect it though I can't join her in it in a way she'd understand.

You are adopted, and I think you may have an attachment disorder? Reactive Attachment Disorder. My mother was adopted, and had a difficult time of it, and in turn did not parent her children very well and I have it too! I remember feeling the same things and being generally afraid of people when I was a child. Always afraid that I was a loathsome freak and just not being able to make things work well with people. Always comparing myself and feeling inferior, always feeling hated and hating myself. I didn't know about RAD until recently, but when I saw a show on a young Romanian orphan boy who'd been adopted into a loving home but had all these interpersonal issues, it really hit home with me, and I totally saw myself! A light went on in my life. Please look into RAD, it may offer you some insights and help.

I think you are an extraordinarily sensitive introverted type, and this basic personality type is especially prone to RAD when early bonding has been disrupted or incomplete for one reason or another.

But please don't let "atheism" (the concept per se) scare you. We still have each other, and you can be a beautiful spiritual being without believing in a humanoid deity. ^_~ Be full of awe and love, be grateful to the universe for what you have (or try to, I often fail at this myself) and you are a good person.


ETA links:



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Hi John, Thanks you for those posts. It was comforting to read something positive about believing in God. It is something that has got a bad rap in recent years, but I believe we have thrown out the baby with the bath water.

I too studied the possibility of their being a God, and came to the 'logical' conclusion that it was better for me to believe than not to believe. I was an atheist for almost 20 years, and frankly they were lonely and dark years where I found nothing I could hang unto to give me hope. Faith brought light to my life and comfort to my soul. In many part of the world Faith continues to be like water, central to life, but in the west it is considered a little primitive to believe. Probably because many of us have seen how religious leaders have manipulated and continue to manipulate the masses for their own ambitions, under the pretext of 'religion' and the love of God.

I think the key is to remain focused on the essense of 'religion', on the fundamental messages of the prophets. They have much to teach about the nature of life, how virtues are a stepping stone to understanding the larger realities of God, about learning how to better live with each other on this planet. The problem is that with time, humans always seem to find a way to corrupt the initial messages of the prophets, until their essence is so obscured by rhetoric and dogma and it's hard to make out the initial message. So people stop believing in God, when they should just stop believing in outdated traditions, dogma and nutty clerics, and return to the essence of what Christ, Buddha, Krishna, Mohammed have said, or Baha'u'llah in my case. They all try to enlighten humanity with regards to another reality, another realm one might say, one that has to do with the soul and existence in a larger sense, they urge humanity to higher planes of existence and attaction within love, compassion, kindness, patience... Frankly I think the world could use a good dose of all those things right now....

Anyway, just to say that I enjoyed your post about the role of God in our lives...it was refreshing ...

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