Nice one

[Calla]

I'm absolutely fine with letting it die out....it kind of had but for some reason stirred up again and I wasn't going to just take it without responding I'm afraid.

But I agree it should die out and whatever lessons people feel they can take from it then great.

Bad news is I'm not going to leave just because I have been bullied into it. While I feel I can make a difference and help new people I will stick around. And one final point is that I was accused of constantly criticising mods for not replying to people. That is false. I reacted badly once when it happened to me and other than that I have always told new people they will get good responses here and sometimes it just takes a while for people to reply depending on various factors. So actually most of the time I have spent "bigging" the place and all you people who advise up and not the other way round.

[truthteller]

Mark: I was not calling anyone names. I am not hiding behind anything. I was previously nejiwhopper. My husband deleted my account and I had to create a new one.

Endless: I know this is disturbing and upsetting to you. I know that this is the only place you can turn to. You are the perfect example of how things should work on here. You will give support to anyone and everyone. There are things going on though that can be harmful to others.

Calla: I commend you for sticking up for the underdog. I am sorry that everyone has taken your comments and turned them into personal attacks when all you wanted to do was bring to light that there were some things being said that could be harmful to others.

Luna: I know there is more than meets the eye, I am speaking from my own personal experiences here and what I have witnessed. I do know that there are things that go on "behind the scenes" and like Calla mentions, that itself feeds my paranoia.

The moderators are not perfect, and I do not expect them to be. I am not only talking about moderators here....I am talking about the community as a whole. However, the moderators should lead by example.

Tell me, how was I suppose to feel after this? I did not receive a warm welcome to the site. I was feeling very desperate and scared and overwhelmed (as most people do when they come here) and upon not receiving a response to my first post, had, out of desperation; posted something to that effect. In which I did receive a reply that was not welcoming but basically telling me this isn't a crisis line or help line. Then later in another thread, I was accused by Allan of lying about my story. I posted here on this very thread trying to give my unbiased opinion and view as a new comer. I was told I was taking sides. (I wasn't then, but I am now) After that, only the same few people would response to any of my threads. No matter what the topic or the forum. (Thank you Linda, SE and Endless). I tried to start a discussion about a topic and even Allan felt it would be good to discuss but no one would reply. I knew I had annoyed the certain people and friends of certain people and was purposely being avoided.

I posted a thread to say good bye. I let everyone know that my husband found out about my plans to leave and had even read everything I had put on here. Again, only the same few people showed any concern. It's nice to know that after everything I had told everybody about what was going on in my life, that as far as anyone could have known, I could have been killed and I wouldn't have been missed.

This whole experience on here has hurt me more than helped me and that is what I am trying to point out to everyone. That what you say and what you do on here....especially because this is a place for people with mental illnesses can be just as harmful as it can be helpful. I don't care if you're a moderator or a new member. EVERYONE has to be aware.

This is my final post on this site. Like I said, my husband installed a keylogger and is now reading everything. It only creates even further problems for me to come here. But I wanted to come on here at least one more time and hopefully someone will finally stop being defensive and look at All of this and peaceful discussions can begin on how to improve things.

You are all good people and I only hope the best for you all. Take care.

Neji (Truth)

[spiritual_emergency]

Neji: my husband installed a keylogger and is now reading everything. It only creates even further problems for me to come here.

Hello Neji,

I don't know if you'll be back to read this. If you are, I thought you might appreciate these links to take with you:

#1: Clarissa Pinkola Estes - Women Who Run with the Wolves (Excerpts)

You seemed to be enjoying your initial forays into Jung. That book is a good place to start. I don't know if you could find it there but you most certainly could order it.

#2: Pema Chodron - The Spirit of Tonglen

I never know if that link will be as helpful for others as it was for me. There was a time when I breathed Tonglen practically non-stop. I recommend it to others as a form of pain relief, particularly for people who are feeling very alone in their pain. Tonglen practice helped me to feel less alone and I suspect that's why it helped to soothe my pain.

Pema Chodron is another author you may enjoy. You can find numerous free articles on the net as well as several books at your favorite book store.

I wish you well.

~ Namaste

[malign]

... peaceful discussions can begin on how to improve things.

In the spirit of 'truthteller's conclusion, I'd like to open this discussion up to anyone in the community who would like to respond.

If I may be so bold as to try to condense the issues, the questions appear to be:

How can we make the site more welcoming to newcomers?

What can we do to address appearances of favoritism?

I would like to add, though, that the "job" of moderator involves two activities that I know of: spam policing and removal, and settling disputes among members. Anything else we do, such as greet new members or reply to posts, we do as regular members. I can understand that this fact may not be clear to people, but that does not change its factitudinicity. ;-)

This is not about particular people or personalities. In my opinion, it never has been, but it's clear that opinions differ on that. What I'd like it to be about is making this as good a site for people in need as we can possibly make it. As a result, I would suggest that we try to hold our responses to others for a reasonable time, so that as many people as possible get a chance to speak.

[Calla]

Sounds a good idea to me to discuss this. Perhaps you'd think about starting a new thread about it? As I recognise this one has stirred up bad feeling. So perhaps a new fresh start on a new thread?

I would say, as others have, I didn't really pick up on the fact that it is basically other members replying when I first joined. I thought there was a heavy professional input. So thats why I felt more hurt that professionals were ignoring me. Only later did I realise it wasn't really staffed. Maybe I just missed it somewhere but perhaps it could be clearer...again I am picking up on a point that has already been made.

[spiritual_emergency]

malign: In the spirit of 'truthteller's conclusion, I'd like to open this discussion up to anyone in the community who would like to respond.

A response and some observations in light of this thread and the discussion that's taken place regarding hadtoomuchpain's thread...

I went back to establish what my experience as a "newbie" had been. Part of the difficulty may be that I'm a newbie here, but I'm not new to online discussions. As a result, even without participating to any degree I already had some experience and expectations regarding what I could expect.

Nonetheless, my review today brought up the following...

- The FAQ is not related to the community dynamic, it's related to the software host. That in itself isn't a problem so much as the fact that there doesn't really appear to be a "Community FAQ". The closest I could find was this opening post by Mark in the New Members forum:

Welcome new members.

As of March 3rd, 2009, all newly joined members will be limited to posting about their issues in this single forum which is set up as a sandbox. We've been experiencing a fair amount of spam and porn posts which is getting in the way of the business of the community. Members here need to trust one another or this place doesn't work.

What you should do now is create a NEW THREAD in this forum!

Create a brand new thread in this forum. Tell us about yourself or just launch into your issues.

Trusted members of the forum will read what you have to say and if they feel you are for real and not some scammer, they will increase your reputation (by voting up your reputation after reading your new post). Once you pass a fairly low threshold, you will automatically become a trusted member and will be able to post in any forum here.

We look forward to talking with you and welcoming you into our community and hope that you can bear with us while we give you a once-over so as to deter spammers.

That told me that there was some sort of "trial" process new members had to go through and that spam and porn had been an issue in the past but it didn't clarify some of the points that have been raised of late such as...

- The fact that the site is not professionally staffed. It's not the equivalent of an online walk-in mental health clinic. Both Neji and hadtoomuchpain seemed to have that impression however. Those kinds of misunderstandings can happen but it might not hurt to clarify and emphasize that although professionals may take part, they are doing so as peers, not as professionals and that no "professional" support is available.

- It doesn't address the issue of individuals who are in an immediate crisis. Elsewhere, the idea of a "sticky" for the Urgent Need area has been discussed but it might not hurt to include a notation in the New Member Welcome.

- It doesn't address the potential that participants might find themselves in conflict from time to time, how they might wish to address it, and what mods/admins will or can do to address it.

How can we make the site more welcoming to newcomers?

How about shifting the New Members discussion area to the very top of the board and expanding the Welcome post so it includes a bit more information regarding the community "personality". If that information is already prepared somewhere, include a link in the New Member Welcome post. Bear in mind, you might not want to make it more welcoming. There are small communities, large communities and huge communities. Each has a slightly different feel to them. This one has a small-town feel and that might even be its appeal. Bigger is not always better. In other words, don't fall over yourselves trying to please everybody. It can't be done. Rather, focus on where you are pleasing already and refine that.

What can we do to address appearances of favoritism?

That's difficult because favoritism is generally related to some people being in the "in" group and other people feeling like outcasts because they're not. However, if they didn't have a desire to be "in" they wouldn't feel like they were "out". If you could eliminate the desire, you'd eliminate the sense of exclusion but it's also pointless for people to pretend they don't care about something when deep down, they do. What is, just is.

It might help to note that birds of a feather tend to do that sticking thing. In any social setting there will be a number of groups that are bound together by a common interest. For myself, I'll go towards the discussions related to Schizophrenia and Psychosis. Someone else might head for the Depression topic and the people there. Others can be found hanging around the Bipolar water cooler, or the Relationship cooler. We go where our interests and concerns are, and probably respond accordingly. To use myself as an example, I'm not posting in the Depression or Relationship topics. Nor do I feel excluded by those who do. People will be here for different reasons, including getting their needs met for social interaction and inclusion. There are no guarantees that any needs will be met although chances are, some of them will be.

The above is made a bit more difficult by the fact that this is also a smaller community as compared to others so there may be a higher degree of familiarity and intimacy among members, particularly those that have participated for a longer period of time. That's not favoritism, it's established history, but it can feel like favoritism if you haven't yet developed your own history.

However the other thing that mods and admins can do to minimize favoritism is by trying to be fair. That might mean establishing some community guidelines/rules, ensuring members are aware of them, and then holding everyone -- including mods and admins -- to those standards. That, in my opinion, is the most damaging kind of favoritism, when there are two standards of behavior according to "social rank".

[Guest ASchwartz]

Hi Everyone,

Of course, this is not an emergency walkin clinic for psychiatry. Its an online support community. We simply do not have the power to be anything like a clinic. Partially, this is because people are anonymous here and that is as it should be. We can ask Mark about making it clearer that we do not offer emergency services but, for myself, I thought that was pretty clear.

In terms of professional staff, that would be me. However, I do not and cannot offer psychotherapy. Advice, yes, but this is not even remotely psychotherapy.

I do not have the impression that there is favoritism in this forum or any others here at this site. However, I am not dismissing the fact that some of you feel this does exist. If it happens I would like it to be pointed out to me. That can even be done by PMing me. I would like to be made aware so we can help everyone, including me, relate better to one another.

Some of you feel that you were not warmly welcomed here. There is a problem in the way new members come to us. Sometimes, many new members post all at once and the newer posts get to be seen more easily than the older ones. Also, there is a time factor in getting to all the new posts. I fully understand that this can lead to feeling that you have been ignored or not taken seriously. We care about all of you and do our best. Any suggestions about how to get to people faster?

Allan

[ChasingDreams]

Hey:)

I just noticed, after spiritual_emergency brought up the FAQ, that there is a section laying out the dynamics of the community and stating things such as "It should be assumed that Members are not mental health professionals and that Members may not be capable of providing sound advice or counsel." it just maybe should be located in a place where it is more obvious? Currently you go into FAQ and then Terms of Use, under the Community Rules section, and that is exactly where it should be, however for the sake of new people to the site, maybe it would be easier for them to see and understand this if the "New people go see the FAQ" (can't remember the exact wording, but its just above the forum links) link that is on the entry page when you are not registered/logged in was changed to something like "New people go here to learn About the Community" and lead them straight to the info telling them the purpose of the forum and the membership. I would think the details of how posting, etc. works could come later after they are registered. I do remember finding this section before I registered, but it seems like some people missed it and maybe we could just make it more obvious so everyone knows what to expect coming in:)

[spiritual_emergency]

It's here: http://community.mentalhelp.net/faq.php

I can't believe I missed it! I think what I did was click this one: http://community.mentalhelp.net/faq.php?faq=vb3_board_faq#faq_vb3_board_usage

Yes, I agree it would be helpful to link that in a more obvious or more than one place (the New Member Welcome perhaps?). Maybe link them as they are shown:

• Terms of Use
  
• Governance
  
• Respect for Members and Readers
  
• Regulated Topics of Discussion
  
• Triggering Content and Use of Trigger Tags
  
• Unsafe Topics
  
• Forums and Posts
  
• Moderators
  
• Member Accounts
  

[Lindamomof7]

Allan,

I think another important factor in the reason why some people reply is the fact that how many "members" who are listed as online are actually members who post at all?? Do you know the percentage of the member list that go online, post or are they just viewing.

And could it be that because of the different themed forums, there might be less response? Maybe....

Maybe I am wrong but I do see "regular" members who post do so in threads that they are comfortable reading and that maybe feel they have something of value to add as a reply. I think maybe that is where some members might feel there is favortism going on?

When new threads are started and depending on the forum it is posted on, I may NEVER read it, some I will start to read and then some I feel comfortable with replying to.

In my 8 months here, I have seen quite a few "new" members be confused and think someone will automatically answer them. But like I said alot of members do not reply and there are some members who always say "welcome" and really how many members are online in a given time frame who actually post? When I check I have seen 1 to maybe 15 at one time and I understand some might "hide" their status too.

So right from a new members start they are given a reason from a member who "welcomes" them for why no one has responded to them. Maybe there can be an automated response welcoming them and giving a few guidelines as to how the forum works and then give them a link to the other new member information on the site where they can read more information.

I know for me, a lot of the "regulars" who used to post and reply with me are no longer online, and we all had something in common, our illnesses and our personalities. Does that mean there was favortism on my part? No, I try to welcome and help who I can when I read their thread. If it is not a subject I want to talk about I will not reply. And it also depends on the attitude of the person and if it comes through to me in words then I know to stay clear before I get myself into trouble...

[Catmom]

Thank you, Spritual Emergency for the link to the Women Who Run with the Wolves excerpts. I read the book when it came out 18 years ago and need to read Estes wisdom again.

Catmom

[Guy Out There]

Hi Everyone,

Any suggestions about how to get to people faster?

Allan

Thought i should point out (even though it is more Mark's job), it is fairly easy to modify the forum software in order so that recent unanswered posts in the new members section keep 'floating' to the top of the section and can be seen.

Mark should be able to do this or if he is short of time i am almost sure someone released a template to add this function publicly.

Also i feel it is only natural that certain 'friend groups' form on sites like these, for example, i am more likley to answer xx, yy and zz's posts and vice versa. I don't see any problem with that providing we all make an effort to answer other posts where we feel able..

[Guest SomethingOrOther]

Haha, we can try to get to people faster... but I'm lazy , so if we rewrite the welcome message, we can also tell people to not expect a reply that quickly and that the best chance to get a conversation, with other ordinary people, going probably is to write a medium sized post maybe asking some specific questions and to be persistent in a nice way. Also, it is possible that people get the reputation to answer other threads even before anyone answered theirs (because some posts are quite unanswerable really), so in a lot of cases they don't really have to wait for a reply before they can go and talk to people. (Though now I only see green boxes instead of a reputation, is that just me, or does that make understanding the reputation system a lot more difficult?)

[Lindamomof7]

Your right somethingorother, some posts are unanswerable so maybe thats why in an automated answer it might want to say, tell us a little about yourself, etc... so that members can jump in and answer something normal to some abnormal new members posts.

I dont really know, but I think for alot of new people they are looking for acceptance before they will answer anothers post. Just my thought here because there are alot of people who are shy, looking to be welcomed and fear their answer to another post may not be worthy. I have heard that from quite a few new members since I have been here.

Thats why I asked Allan if he has any stats available to him as to the percentage of member, online members and who actually post or start a thread... Sorry dont know if thats possible not to computer savy....

[Luna-]

(Though now I only see green boxes instead of a reputation, is that just me, or does that make understanding the reputation system a lot more difficult?)

Mark changed the rep point system so it now has two states: new member, (may only post in New Members Post Here), and trusted member, (may post anywhere). This means we can still keep spam to one area where we can easier nuke it. Beyond that the rep system serves no other function, which is why Mark changed the number that used to show, to a little green box. Everyone has one, including newbies.

Being a non-spammer is the only qualification needed to be a trusted member. Any member, not only moderators, can "approve" a new member if they see that a post is genuine, ie not-spam. You still just click on the scales, check "I approve" and enter. So anyone already in the community can assist new people by doing this, if they see a new member posting for the first time. You can check if it has been done by mouseing-over the little green square and you will see the message. (There is still the issue of the newbie not knowing they can post anywhere which is where it helps to actually tell them this, in their thread, along with the welcome.)

The more members that participate in welcoming newbies, the more the load of doing this is spread and the faster (and "better") people are welcomed. It also helps a newbie feel more welcome if a couple of people welcome them, not just one. As malign said, moderators tend to fill in with this task, if no-one else has welcomed a newbie, in the interests of making the community inviting, but this is not a moderator task or duty, we take on this task as ordinary members. (This is why it hurts when we are criticised for not doing this fast enough or well enough, as if it were a duty. Because we do it, it is seen as something that is our role, but this is not the case.)

This public service message was brought to you in the interest of community participation.

[Luna-]

Oh dear, my post seems to have killed this conversation. Or have we just come up with everything there is to say? Malign’s questions again:

How can we make this site more welcoming to newcomers?

What can we do to address appearances of favoritism?

Anyone else have anything to add?