Nice one

[Calla]

Seeing as Allan has (rather professionally) just informed me that an "awful" lot of you have been complaining about me behind my back I shall take my leave from this site.

It's nice to know that I am seemingly one of the worst people ever to grace the forum. I have never personally attacked anyone of you and never judged anyone as I have been told. I have only ever spoken up if I feel something is wrong. But as with most "democratic" places freedom of speech is an illusion.

Allan has singled handedly today made me once again feel like absolute crap when I have been desperately fighting suicidal thoughts and paranoia for a while.

There is a book I can recommend Allan....it talks about labelling, mind reading and discounting the positives. You might want to have a look.

And with that, thank you for complaining behind my back and not having the guts to talk to me personally, you'll all be relieved to know I am out of here now.

[Calla]

I would also like to point out that when I just asked Allan for clarification of the "hostile" things I have done he has accused me of things I haven't actually done. I have not been steadily criticising moderators for not responding quickly enough. When I first came here I had that reaction as I think a lot of people do. It's a reaction that comes from desperation and hurt.

Since then I have done nothing but explain to new people that that is how it happens sometimes depending on time of day etc.

He also said I had "attacked" him when I once asked what the meaning was behind the deletions question. I only asked because we all seemed to be saying the same thing and I wondered what he was looking for. But how dare I question someone on here hey.

He cannot excuse his hostile behaviour towards me tonight under the guise of "professionalism"

[spiritual_emergency]

Calla... might I suggest you give your decision 24 hours and then decide if departing will be in your own best interest.

If you do decide to leave, I do know of some other forums where you might comfortably take part so at least, you wouldn't lose a source of support that you might find valuable.

Meantime, remember, you are not responsible for someone else's behavior and even professionals are human with issues of their own that have to be dealt with, same as everyone else.

~ Namaste

[Guest nejiwhopper]

..........................

[mscat]

Calla,

I am sorry you feel this way However, I really do believe that this ought to sent in a PM and resolved in a private matter. Writing about it in a post only stirs everyone up, and people becomming defensive.

I have been here for a while, and have not once read or felt like Allen has been critical or off base. That is just my opinion . Your more then free to leave, just do not bring the rest of the community down by your constant negativity...

I wish you the best , and feel badly about the circumstances .

[Calla]

I tried to resolve this in PM but Allan brought others into it so I felt it was right to put it in the feedback section. If you read the meaning of the feedback section it is for complaints, suggestions...ie feedback. This is my complaint, so this is where it belongs.

So constant negativity is it? Sorry I have never offered anyone any help or positivity.

[mscat]

Ok, lately I have been under the impression that you have been very unhappy ..... I am glad that you did try and PM. this is the feedback fourm , but, it is not to annouce when somebody leaves.... Or to bring others down , and to create contoversy. People want to take sides now or feel defensive. Life is too short to create drama all the time. Many of us have enough to deal with , then to be in the middle of this crap. If your that unhappy then take a break or leave , other than always having to attack the moderaters and those who run the community... Nobody is forcing you to be a part of this community. If it is not working for you anymore then go without all the Drama please..

[Calla]

I'm not using it to announce leaving I am using it to complain about the behaviour of someone who is classed as a professional here. This is my right and if you don't like it don't read it, simple as that.

When I read something that had NO trigger warning and it upset me I was informed in very direct terms that it was my own fault for reading it. So in that vein if this upsets you it's your own fault for reading it.

When I told someone they might need a break I was told I was nasty and uncalled for....in that case you are being nasty to me.

When do I "always" attack the moderators then?

[Guy Out There]

Calla, it would be a great shame to loose you from this site, there have been a number of posts to lead me to believe Allan has been behaving rather insensitivly recently (sorry Allan but it's true), i hope you will consider again whether leaving this site is a good idea or not, my advice is for those who are bitching to come forward and do so in public, if you don't i have a feeling somebody may expose you sooner or later...

(Feel free to bitch about me i don't really give a sh*t, i don't know who you are and if your the type of person who likes to bitch behind people's backs then i couldn't care less who you are).

[Guest nejiwhopper]

.......................

[Catmom]

Ok, lately I have been under the impression that you have been very unhappy ..... I am glad that you did try and PM. this is the feedback fourm , but, it is not to annouce when somebody leaves.... Or to bring others down , and to create contoversy. People want to take sides now or feel defensive. Life is too short to create drama all the time. Many of us have enough to deal with , then to be in the middle of this crap. If your that unhappy then take a break or leave , other than always having to attack the moderaters and those who run the community... Nobody is forcing you to be a part of this community. If it is not working for you anymore then go without all the Drama please..

This very well said, mscat, in my opinion. Thank you for expressing this.

Peace,

Catmom

[spiritual_emergency]

This very well said, mscat, in my opinion.

Was it really? Was any of it handled well?

What is it that would prompt a therapist to tell someone that the people they thought were their friends had been talking about them behind their back? It's mean-spirited behavior coming from anyone. Coming from a therapist, it's unprofessional. Coming from a moderator -- it sends a message in terms of what sort of behavior will be acceptable to the community at large.

It does not surprise me when community standards fall thereafter.

[Guest SomethingOrOther]

Actually, I find it perfectly sensible that an admin would point out privately that there have been complaints. That's basically what admins are for, I thought?

I suppose he didn't make them up?

And no, I didn't complain, how surprising is that? Neither do I think the people who complained have to "confess", like they have no right to make their opinion known in a way of their own choosing.

Furthermore, complaints are not generally the same as bitching and the effects of complaining are up to the admin to decide.

I also think it is understandable that Calla would voice her opinion about that in the feedback forum upon finding that the communication with the admin doesn't work properly, because there's no higher force to turn to.. except the other admin... then the people.

Calla is obviously angry and nobody else here can tell whether that's appropriate or not, since we haven't seen the conversation. The behaviour coming from that is a different issue and a bit aggressive, I would say. We don't know if Allan was aggressive. One party citing what the other party has said, isn't the way to find out.

So, what's less sensible in my opinion is everyone coming in and making up opinions based on their own experiences. Hows that going to resolve anything?

Sure, we can discuss where Allan has been insensitive in the past.

We can discuss where Calla overreacted in the past.

We can use the occasion to point out everything that's going wrong in the world at large and kick the shins of everyone we have unfinished business with, while we're at it.

What for?

[Endlessnight]

I agree 100% with what SomethingOrOther said, and I would like to add something.

Please don't turn this forum into a battleground. That's not why it's here and everyone needs to calm down.

For people like me, who have no therapist to vent to, and no one in their life that they feel they can open up to, this forum is all there is.

I am grateful that it's free, that there are people willing to give of their time and compassion to others, people willing to listen and understand and offer their help. Do people make mistakes? Of course, they are human. Does it mean that I am not allowed to be critical sometimes? Of course not. I can't say i've never been frustrated on here, I have, but again, I remind myself that everyone here is here either because they are in pain, are hurting and need help, or want to help others. Please, please, let's not ruin that.

[Luna-]

Calla

This is the third time you have been critical of the moderators and have attempted to draw the community into supporting you in your criticisms. (There are more examples but just these three for now.) To my knowledge you have never reported any of the actions you are unhappy about via the available channels (by sending a PM or email) directly to Mark, the director of our forum. Your continued harassment of those who volunteer for the good of the community while enduring criticisms and lashings out from people in pain such as yourself, is mean-spirited and cannot go unchallenged. Just as any member has recourse to protest against harassment so do the moderators; we are members with rights and feelings too.

Your first incident followed an angry post you made accusing the community of not caring over a lack of response to a previous post. During that incident you accused one of the moderators of making you feel like “the worst person to ever grace the forum” which was completely unjustified. Malign said or implied no such thing, merely said he found it difficult to respond to you.

The second time was when you accused the moderators of lacking sensitivity. Even after the actions to which you were (indirectly, but obviously) referring (where IrmaJean and I were following the rules) were explained to you and Mark had entered the conversation to explain and describe the channels that you could use to complain (and even asked if you would be prepared to do moderating duty which you refused), you continued to harangue the moderators. What made this occasion especially difficult to resolve was your refusal to tackle any issues head-on, or state your objection directly, or name the incidents or people to whom you were referring, instead using passive-aggressive innuendo and side-ways, generalised comments to complain and incite.

Your most recent incident suggesting that I need a “break from moderating” was not motivated out of any concern for me despite what you said and you are well aware of this. You do not like the moderators and me in particular. Despite your protestations to the contrary, attempts to garner sympathy for seemingly showing “concern” for me and knowing your antipathy towards the mods, your intentions in making this comment were snide and hurtful.

These incidents constitute harassment which is deemed disrespect in the rules. I appreciate that you are in pain and dealing with problems which distress you greatly but being in pain is not an excuse to lash out at others, not even the moderators who have rights and feelings too. In your angry outbursts, you appear to be quite oblivious to the hurt your remarks cause and have caused.

You are not being singled out but you appear to have singled out the moderators as a target for your anger and general frustration. It is untrue that you are a target and you know well that you have pattern of seeing rejection in even the innocent remarks. You are also prone to the direction of blame outside yourself without introspecting about what you may have done yourself.

It is my hope that you will be able to calm down and look more rationally at situations. This is a good life skill and also a way to make and maintain friendships, both here and in the off-line world.

[finding my way]

Calla, you had an insight earlier that was quite profound:

However something bad happened today and I have realised something. If I am angry at someone else two things happen.....1)I'm not crying and 2)I'm not angry at myself.

This is something for us all to chew on, and I'm so glad you wrote it.

Do we need to stir up conflict to ease some pressure from the unceasing conflict going on inside?

Anyone that is suffering on the inside, I am sorry for your pain:(. The more self aware we can be about that, the more can be done about it that is positive.

[spiritual_emergency]

SomethingOrOther: Actually, I find it perfectly sensible that an admin would point out privately that there have been complaints. That's basically what admins are for, I thought?

My own thoughts are no, I don't believe so. It might become an administrative requirement to point out that one individual is having repeated conflicts with other members. But to tell them other people have been complaining about them behind their back... that's a different dynamic with a different intent.

Meantime, online communities have hierarchies. Generally speaking there are members and there are mods/admins/founders. Of the two groups, it's the latter which has the most power. This is why they have to use it justly. That doesn't mean it's easy and it doesn't mean they don't unfairly become targeted at times. It also doesn't mean they can do no wrong or are above reproach. They do need to remember that they set the standard for the tone of interaction. If an admin does it, you can bet that others will do the same and justify it as perfectly acceptable because of the example that has been set. Others will protest and sometimes they should.

In this particular community, because of it's nature, there is also another layer of hierarchy because some of the mods/admins/founders are trained professionals and most of the members are some form of patient/client/wounded. As a result, there is going to be more of an emotional charge to what is said by a professional. It might not be fair but people have higher expectations of a professional because they are a professional.

Like Neji, I don't know Calla. I did pass her the name of an alternate forum yesterday that she could make use of but it would still mean she's leaving here hurt and quite possibly, feeling shamed by the community-at-large. Would a little kindness really have been too much? Meantime, in reviewing some of her posts last night I did notice that a repeated plea was for others to be aware of the sensitivity of others. It's something worth keeping in mind. Endless Night has also expressed it very well:

I can't say i've never been frustrated on here, I have, but again, I remind myself that everyone here is here either because they are in pain, are hurting and need help, or want to help others.

Kindness is cheap.

[Guest SomethingOrOther]

My own thoughts are no, I don't believe so. It might become an administrative requirement to point out that one individual is having repeated conflicts with other members. But to tell them other people have been complaining about them behind their back... that's a different dynamic with a different intent.

I agree that this would have a more positive and responsible dynamic, however I am still mentally more focussed on the fact that I can't see what Allan actually did. Maybe "an awful lot of people complained about you" was exactly what he said, maybe it was an actual sentence in a longer text in the same or a different tone, or it's not what's been said at all. There's only two people who know more about it and one of them hasn't had a chance to reply (yet).

I also agree that people tend to have different expectations of professionals. And I probably won't ever stop telling people not to do that, and reminding professionals and everyone that they don't act in this function in here. It DOES say in the forum rules that it's basically best to assume nobody is a professional at all. It doesn't explicitly state that for admins and mods, but I think it's a good idea. Though I also think it's pointless to mention it, because people won't stop seeing a power differential related to that, no matter how often I say it.

[spiritual_emergency]

Relevant links that may be of interest:

Diverse opinions are critical to constructive dialog. Diversity enriches a group. But there is a line between constructive critical thinking and behavior which demeans individuals and potentially destroys communities. It is a fine line with no obvious answer for a facilitator. The goal of this piece is to think about how to support diverse and divergent thinking while reducing the likelihood of personal conflict and group destruction. And this conflict often arises due to misunderstanding. So it is about conflict beteen people, not between ideas. This is an important distinction!

Avoiding Conflict Online

Have you ever noticed how conflict can get blown out of proportion online? What may begin as a small difference of opinion, or misunderstanding, becomes a major issue very quickly. Conflict can be difficult at the best of times, but what is it about online communication that seems to ignite "flaming" and make conflicts more difficult to resolve?

There are a number of reasons to explain why conflict may be heightened online. One is the absence of visual and auditory cues. When we talk to someone in person, we see their facial expressions, their body language, and hear their tone of voice. Someone can say the exact same thing in a number of different ways, and that usually effects how we respond.

For example, someone could shout and shake their finger at you, or they could speak gently and with kindness. They could stand up and tower over you, or they could sit down beside you. How you feel, interpret, and respond to someone's message often depends on how they speak to you, even when it's a difficult message to hear.

In online communications, we have no visual or auditory cues to help us to decipher the intent, meaning, and tone of the messenger. All we have are the words on a computer screen, and how we hear those words in our head. While people who know each other have a better chance at accurately understanding each others? meaning and intentions, even they can have arguments online that they would not have in-person.

Resolving Online Conflict

Personality clashes tend to be one-time events between community members that often result in building familiarity. They are more common among members who have no relationship history with one another such as two newbies, or a newbie and a long-term community resident. We refer to such relationships as non-established -- neither party is familiar with the posting style or online identity of the other. ...

Following a personality clash, two members may feel they know and understand the other far better than they did before -- the disagreement may even pave the way to a friendship forming. In other instances, hard feelings may develop. These can fuel later misunderstandings and conflicts between members.

Personality conflicts on the other hand, involve a period of sustained animosity between two members who have a history of interaction between them. We refer to such relationships as established -- the members are thoroughly familiar with the other's posting style and online persona.

Although each member in a personality conflict may be well-known and admired by other community members they do not get along with one another. There is a strong component of dislike, disrespect or disapproval. Low-end harassment is often exhibited to various degrees by both parties. The conflict may simmer privately for weeks or months and then explode into public community spaces. Personality conflicts have the potential to divide the community as friends and admirers line up behind their favored member (or favored ideology), glare offensively at those on the 'other' side, and trade verbal barbs or other forms of mudslinging.

Personality Clashes and Conflicts

[spiritual_emergency]

SomethingorOther: I also agree that people tend to have different expectations of professionals. And I probably won't ever stop telling people not to do that, and reminding professionals and everyone that they don't act in this function in here. It DOES say in the forum rules that it's basically best to assume nobody is a professional at all. It doesn't explicitly state that for admins and mods, but I think it's a good idea. Though I also think it's pointless to mention it, because people won't stop seeing a power differential related to that, no matter how often I say it.

Administrator, Psychotherapist and Writer

That is Allan's signature so I suspect it's going to be difficult for people to overlook, no matter how often someone (or SomethingorOther ) tells them they should.

Otherwise, I'm going to give this topic and the people involved in the conflict a bit of space.

Calla, if you've made the decision to move on, I hope you fare well. For the most part, I've found the participants at that site to be kind and the moderation to be balanced. I believe this is due to a high standard being set and maintained from the site founder on down. That doesn't guarantee you won't run into problems with others. When and if you do, perhaps the links above in regard to conflict will give you (and everyone else) some ideas for dealing with it.

~ Namaste

[Guy Out There]

Just felt that i should apologise for my 'angry' outburst in this thread, i was going through a lot of problems at the time some of the more urgent ones have now been resolved allowing me to think with a clear head.

I have much respect for the members of this site (all of them), i cannot fairly come into this and take a side because i do not know the full extent of the problems but from my personal experience on the site certain members in the threads i've read have been singled out by various staff whether by accident or purpose is unclear and i have no right to comment on that.

I hope that anyone offended by my comments may take the time to contact me and allow me to resolve the issue personally.

[Luna-]

Hi Guy

I doubt anyone was offended by your comments, I certainly wasn't.

Glad to hear your more urgent problems have eased up.

[malign]

All,

Everyone here has a right to speak, subject to the restrictions the site imposes in the FAQ, which in my opinion aren't that restrictive. You will note, I hope, that no one on this thread has been prevented from speaking. Calla herself, to my knowledge, has never been subject to any action by a moderator or administrator, beyond speaking to her.

I believe that sometimes, people in the community forget that moderators, and to some extent administrators, are community members, too. I spend maybe 20% of my time onsite actively seeking or removing spammers, maybe 2% of it identifying or reacting to disagreements, the vast majority of those responses being purely verbal, and the rest of the time as an ordinary member, greeting new arrivals or talking to people I've met before, reading, and blogging. {Yes, I made up the numbers; I'm not compulsive enough to keep a log of my time. The estimate seems accurate enough, to me.}

This is not a community that requires heavy-handed moderating. Most of the people who come here need help, but most of them also want to offer help and support to others. That makes this a lot gentler a crowd than you get on some forums.

As a result, we don't need (or have, if I need to be specific) a "blacklist", or a set of people we actively discourage, or anything of the sort. Any opinions expressed are those of their owners, though the majority are heartfelt and not intended to cause pain. I would put any exceptions to that statement down to humanity, rather than some sort of systematic plot against anyone on the site.

However, when you observe someone being less than supportive to others, I personally hope that the community won't wait for a moderator. I think community response is vital to keep this community feeling safe. While moderator intervention may be needed to cut off a particulary abusive poster, I think it has been needed and used perhaps only a half dozen times in the year and a half I've been here. That's because of the strength and integrity of our community.

So, in the end, I don't see this thread as one of conflict. Sure, there are different opinions, and some hurt feelings. That happens, sometimes. But what I see is a community expressing its feelings, and possibly healing.

It's up to us to choose a perspective.

[Calla]

Calla

This is the third time you have been critical of the moderators and have attempted to draw the community into supporting you in your criticisms. (There are more examples but just these three for now.) To my knowledge you have never reported any of the actions you are unhappy about via the available channels (by sending a PM or email) directly to Mark, the director of our forum. Your continued harassment of those who volunteer for the good of the community while enduring criticisms and lashings out from people in pain such as yourself, is mean-spirited and cannot go unchallenged. Just as any member has recourse to protest against harassment so do the moderators; we are members with rights and feelings too.

Your first incident followed an angry post you made accusing the community of not caring over a lack of response to a previous post. During that incident you accused one of the moderators of making you feel like “the worst person to ever grace the forum” which was completely unjustified. Malign said or implied no such thing, merely said he found it difficult to respond to you.

The second time was when you accused the moderators of lacking sensitivity. Even after the actions to which you were (indirectly, but obviously) referring (where IrmaJean and I were following the rules) were explained to you and Mark had entered the conversation to explain and describe the channels that you could use to complain (and even asked if you would be prepared to do moderating duty which you refused), you continued to harangue the moderators. What made this occasion especially difficult to resolve was your refusal to tackle any issues head-on, or state your objection directly, or name the incidents or people to whom you were referring, instead using passive-aggressive innuendo and side-ways, generalised comments to complain and incite.

Your most recent incident suggesting that I need a “break from moderating” was not motivated out of any concern for me despite what you said and you are well aware of this. You do not like the moderators and me in particular. Despite your protestations to the contrary, attempts to garner sympathy for seemingly showing “concern” for me and knowing your antipathy towards the mods, your intentions in making this comment were snide and hurtful.

These incidents constitute harassment which is deemed disrespect in the rules. I appreciate that you are in pain and dealing with problems which distress you greatly but being in pain is not an excuse to lash out at others, not even the moderators who have rights and feelings too. In your angry outbursts, you appear to be quite oblivious to the hurt your remarks cause and have caused.

You are not being singled out but you appear to have singled out the moderators as a target for your anger and general frustration. It is untrue that you are a target and you know well that you have pattern of seeing rejection in even the innocent remarks. You are also prone to the direction of blame outside yourself without introspecting about what you may have done yourself.

It is my hope that you will be able to calm down and look more rationally at situations. This is a good life skill and also a way to make and maintain friendships, both here and in the off-line world.

To accuse me of harrassment is quite frankly absurd and I have taken great exception to this. Hence having to come back and reply. I have NEVER harrassed anyone, I have never PMed anyone other than general conversation and I think you should take back that statement. But as ever you won't because I am a mere mortal here and you are in the right clearly.

The incident with Malign has been recounted by you in an unfair way was well. I had a bad reaction to no one responding to me....a COMMON occurance in such a place. Previous to that I have been honest in my responses, if someone suggests something I say "tried that" or "don't feel strong enough for that" whats the point in coming here and not being honest. So then I was told by Malign that people didn't answer because of that. You can have no idea how that made me feel. So of course I reacted badly and you waded in when it was nothing to do with you and attacked me viciously. But as ever the sun shines out of you, so no one cared how YOU made me feel.

I've never reported these things because Mark has his fingers in his ears shouting "blah blah blah" if it means criticising a moderator. As people have said my biggest crime has been asking people to think before they act....well blow me down, what a hideous person I am.

And yes I did turn down moderating because unlike some people I can admit I am not up to the job.

And do not ever presume to mind read me. I meant what I said about you needing a break as looking after yourself as well as not upsetting new members, so don't EVER tell me how I meant something. I tried to make admends with you after the original incident. Wishing you Happy Birthday for a start, but you have made it your mission to make me look like a bitch in front of everyone. Well, WELL DONE you. Aren't you proud of yourself? If I had blasted new members for "assuming they have a right to help here" You all soon have something to say about it to me. Telling me I am hostile and nasty. But because you upset people Luna it's ok.

And I wrote here because I felt bullied by Allan and what is it they say when you feel bullied....Tell someone! So I have.

I have never said I don't like the moderators and once again I am hacked off with you telling people what I think and how I feel. You have all seriously misjudged me and this site has been the worst thing ever to happen to me. I am a nice person who is having difficulties. I have had a few moments where I am unhappy here because people are insensitive. I have tried to be one of the gang but you all rounded on me from the first mistake. Cheers guys. And with that this thread and my membership can fade into the ether.

[Calla]

Oh and to the people who said Allan was right to have a word. If he had PMed me to have a quiet word about this I would never have said anything. It was mid discussion as an attack on me. And as a professional I would expect someone to try and get to the bottom of why someone says the things they do, not attack someone as "hostile" and "no excuse for my behaviour" If my behaviour for asking people to be sensitive sends me to the gallows, then I happily hang. And you all be there cheering I'm sure.