Feminism, Body Shaming, and what I hope to learn/have learned

[ShameOnThem]

Hello, new guy here. I'll save the introduction stuff for another day, but I'm really glad there is a place where I can discuss having a small penis with others. I always have a lot on my mind, but for now I'll try to deal with one subject.

A while back, I identified with the help of my sister that I hated women, despite being an otherwise genuinely nice and understanding person at all times. I adopted Feminism as a means of addressing this, and I have realized that this was just a manifestation of my self-hatred(for reference, this self hatred is part small penis shame, part rejection from crushes/female(non-sexual), part other self-consciousness issues, and part issues with my own mentality/behavior). I'd say this is going well, as I am still generally happy on a day to day basis, and I have realized some of the great concepts that Feminism has to offer. With regards to my penis, I love the concept of Body Shame(that's why I chose this name) because it really spoke to what I was feeling. Typically Body Shaming/Body Image issues didn't deal with penis size, but everyone kind of realizes that it's all part of the same problem. So I was wondering if anybody else identifies as Feminist and/or what your thoughts/criticisms were on Body Shaming as a concept and Feminism in general?

Disclaimer: Feminism is an altruistic set of principles and ideas that is a wholeheartedly positive influence on the world we live in. That said, there are many, many bad "feminists" out there that do not practice good Feminism all the time. When I ask for critiques, and when I critique myself, I'm dealing with these implementation(ie. "Body Shaming is the fault of men"), not the root concepts behind Feminism(ie. "Body Shaming is bad"). As a recovering women hater, I know that it's important to acknowledge that a bad apple doesn't say anything about the bunch.

So a little bit about my thoughts on my question, I think it's very discouraging to see Body Shaming coming from "feminists" and feminist media sources that are otherwise completely against the concept of a superior or inferior body standard. I know that my penis may not be enough for some women's personal preferences, but the sexual liberation of women should not rain on the male body image parade. I don't think it's wrong for a woman to fell or say that she desires a certain penis size from her partner, but I have the right and deserve to not feel like my body is inadequate, undesirable, or anything other than perfectly fine. So, it's a pretty fine line that is walked when dealing with penis size and male body image.

Thanks for reading and I look forward to discussing this and other issues with you all.

-Chris

P.S. I feel bad about my penis, too, but I'm not going to/can't let it define me. I'll continue to keep a good attitude, and it's existence as secretive as possible, and just move on and find happiness in life. Maybe within my lifetime, nobody on the earth will ever feel the need to keep their small penis a secret.

[Wutty3]

If one bad apple doesn't spoil the bushel how about three that spread their disease to the others in the bushel?

Here are a few examples of what is being put forth in the name of gender equality.

1) A typical feminist believes men enslave women through marriage:

“Since marriage constitutes slavery for women, it is clear that the Women’s Movement must concentrate on attacking this institution. Freedom for women cannot be won without the abolition of marriage.” – Sheila Cronan, in Radical Feminism – “Marriage” (1970)

2) A typical feminist thinks men are rapists:

“Male sexual aggression is endemic, if any sex act against a person’s will were considered rape, the majority of men would be rapists.” – Marilyn French, The War Against Women, Ballantine Books, 1992, p. 193

3) A typical feminist wants to eradicate manliness:

“Only when manhood is dead–and it will perish when ravaged femininity no longer sustains it–only then will we know what it is to be free.” -Andrea Dworkin, Our Blood: Prophecies

Could you please clarify this >>>>> I love the concept of Body Shame(that's why I chose this name) because it really spoke to what I was feeling.<<<<< Does this mean you love "Body Shaming" as a means of "coping" with our "deformity", or that the act of body shaming is to be frowned on as detrimental to our psychological well being?

[dvnJ22]

A while back, I identified with the help of my sister that I hated women, despite being an otherwise genuinely nice and understanding person at all times.

I want to hear more about this story.

To answer your original question. I honestly not know about much about feminist beliefs. I do think most who are feminist (at least the ones I've come into contact with) use it as an excuse to jerks. That aside I admire the "I don't need a man" to be whole aspect. I can really see how appealing, and empowering it could be.

I think the problem is a lot of women wanted to be more like men sexually. Many had all ideas about male sexuality, about being superficial, domineering, etc. and so they adopted a very unhealthy sexually view. Even if all men acted this way it still wouldn't make sense to treat someone in a way you would want to be treated.

Body shame is a very real problem. I think overweight people are just starting stand up and say "it's not right to shame me for my weight".

In a way penis size is starting to get talked about more without objectifying the man, but just like with weight it will take time.

I wonder how people would act if we could all see everyone as kids again? Even the most jaded person, watches their tongue around a child. Just a thought, because I don't think adults are very different then children.

[gone]

..

[JaiJai]

.............

[ShameOnThem]

@ Wutty3:

Those are 3 good examples of radical, i'd call them corrective, feminism going way overboard. The patriarchy has been pretty shitty to women, and these ridiculous suggestions are just reactionary. I don't personally give them much thought, other than, "wow, you'd have to be pretty pissed off to think that", so they don't shake my faith in equality for everyone(the true core of Feminism.) I also don't think they are typical of most Feminists, as I have found them to be mostly reasonable people, but that comes from too small of a sample size to be anything other than anecdotal. As to your question, definitely the second one. The concept of Body Image/Shaming is contradictory to categorizing an otherwise healthy small penis as a "defomity." I like the concept that it's not my fault that I feel bad about my healthy body, it's the fault of the patriachy for making me feel like there is something wrong with me. There isn't anything wrong with me, just something wrong with our society.

@ dvnJ22:

There's not much to the story, we were talking about something else(I don't remember exactly what) and I said something that was disdainful or insensitive to women in general. She called me out on it and bluntly asked me, "Do you hate women?" It was pretty eye opening, I had never really thought about it like that before, but there was something to it(I'd be happy to elaborate on the roots of this hatred of women more, but the story of my recovery is pretty straightforward). I have always loved my entire family, especially my mom and sister, who are great people(I'm really lucky, though my mom has negatively affected my psyche at times). That was probably 4-5 years ago, and I haven't discussed it with her or anybody else since, but I do read a lot online about issues regarding Feminism and I don't hate anyone anymore, except myself sometimes.

I think you're pretty spot on about Feminism used as an excuse to be a jerk. I see this a lot in blog posts and comments by supposed "feminists" that say a lot of fucked up things. I am a pretty big contrarian on many subjects(I come from a family of respectful arguers) especially when the subject of male body image comes up. I think that it is a natural reaction to spout hate and insensitivity towards the opposite sex when you are unhappy with the treatment you receive. If a rape survivor or someone who is regularly sexually harrased on the street thinks it's ok to broadcast their discontent through shaming those with male body image issues, I can empathize while still telling them why they are misguided. I have seen the same type of reaction on these boards, where men broadcast their unhappiness on how they have been treated onto the perceived abusers(women) even though it is a very few that actually do the hurting.

I also think it is a fascinating topic of how penis size is compared to other forms of body shame. Penis size is inherently hidden from the world while body fat, height, breast size, and elbow dryness(unreasonable female body conciousness is a subject for another day, but it's an infuriating response when used to justify male body shame) are out there in the open. I theorize that if all penises were located out in the open, there wouldn't be nearly as many people on this message board, but that's just a thought of mine. Lots of fat people are standing up against fat shaming, but there is a reason why I'll only sign these posts with my first name, there is no way in hell I'd publicly stand up against small penis shame (at least not now.) This is a pretty big dynamic when dealing with penis size shame and our societies treatment of it. There has never been someone who has been publicly recognized in our society as having a small penis and who is not looked down upon for having one. If anybody knows of such an isntance please make me aware of it. I hope that when I'm older(I'm 25) and married to a wonderful woman(I'm single) I'll feel able to publicly stand up to male body shame, but then any bullshit aspersions may be broadcast onto the rest of my family, which I would never be ok with.

@ JaiJai:

Thanks for the like, I've got a good attitude, but it's out of neccessity, not some general positivity I have. I can't just sulk about these feelings, I'd much rather discuss them.

Thanks for the comments

-Chris

[dvnJ22]

@ dvnJ22:

There's not much to the story, we were talking about something else(I don't remember exactly what) and I said something that was disdainful or insensitive to women in general. She called me out on it and bluntly asked me, "Do you hate women?" It was pretty eye opening, I had never really thought about it like that before, but there was something to it(I'd be happy to elaborate on the roots of this hatred of women more, but the story of my recovery is pretty straightforward). I have always loved my entire family, especially my mom and sister, who are great people(I'm really lucky, though my mom has negatively affected my psyche at times). That was probably 4-5 years ago, and I haven't discussed it with her or anybody else since, but I do read a lot online about issues regarding Feminism and I don't hate anyone anymore, except myself

.

Thanks for the comments

-Chris

Well you mom sounds like mine.

So what was the source of your hate?

I just hate how a woman can humiliate a man for having a small penis, and it's like ok for her to do it. They feel justified and no one cares.

[Wutty3]

>>>>>I just hate how a woman can humiliate a man for having a small penis, and it's like ok for her to do it.<<<<<

All with society's blessing. We are a victim of our culture. It has become sick and perverted. Today's "good" was yesterday's "evil" and vice versa. We are against killing our most heinous criminals but fight tooth and nail to allow women to kill their innocent unborn children. We make a mockery of traditional marriage and family values. Misandry is accepted and misogyny is an affront to society. Good wholesome creative entertainment won't sell if a life depended on it but "baby killin music", "twerk-a-thons", "Ho bangin' cop killin'" rap and hip hop "music" (cough cough) sells billions. I could go on for hours ranting and have gone off topic ( a little ). So I'll quit for now.

[Victimorthecrime]

100% full agreement Wutty and no amount of highly stylized nonsense is going to change that.

[dvnJ22]

Society is just like the book brave new world. It scary how accurate that book was.

[ShameOnThem]

So what was the source of your hate?

I just hate how a woman can humiliate a man for having a small penis, and it's like ok for her to do it. They feel justified and no one cares.

I wrote an origin story of my hate, but it was basically just my life story. I pm'd you it, because I don't know if anybody else cares, or if I really want to have my 3rd post be my very long life story. Other can pm me if they are interested in my hatred. I'm sure it'll come up in future discussions.

I don't hate them anymore, though, but I think there are a lot of bad people out there, men and women. I don't like that it's socially acceptable for women and men to insult other men on the size of their penis. It's something we can work towards ending within our culture. I'm young, I'm interested in making the world better for others. I don't agree with many of the things Wutty said after that we are victims of our own culture. There are things we can change for the better, but we won't get there through hating others.

Any good Feminist, who understands Feminism values and practices them without personal bias or agenda, would never humiliate a man for his penis. It's counterproductive because it I know it's tough to say that when "feminists" do just that, but we can't become consumed with the bad people in the world.

[dvnJ22]

What size are you shameonthem? Are you one of those guys who thinks he is small?

[ShameOnThem]

nope, about 3.5" erect

[Wutty3]

Deleted...what I was going to say is too politically incorrect.

[Perseverance]

Deleted...what I was going to say is too politically incorrect.

Huh? You're on a online forum not speaking at town hall. Speak your mind.

[Wutty3]

American women are perhaps the luckiest women in the world. They have, however, taken for granted the fact that they were given rights in a world where rights for women are still curtailed, limited, and at times, non-existent. Many women on the planet are not free in any sense of the word. Many women are still owned entities. So, the question begs - why are American women, whose culture and males allowed them to have freedom from gender bondage, so incredibly stupid with their freedom?

Let us consider a small list of shallow stupidities:

* They are free to take vanity to bizarre standards and measures – those created by the beauty, health, and media industries – that mandate skeletal thinness, life-long photo-youth looks, tanning bed skin color, Botox shots in the face, fake breasts, fake fingernails, waxing, manicured eyebrows, plastic surgery of every make and measure, bleached teeth, and unending and life-long diets.

* They are free to fall into the trap of the mandatory mental health industry – supporting big pharma and the New Freedom Initiative on Mental Health – by their addictions to anti-depressants to the tune of millions and millions of American women now zoning out on a daily basis with mood-altering drugs.

* They are also free to become useless in their homes. They now hire maid services, landscapers, pool cleaners, painters, interior decorators, cooks, nannies, teachers and tutors, caterers, therapists, party planners, massage therapists, laundry services, etc., while losing every intuitive instinct of their female natures.

* They are free to have extra-marital affairs, multiple lovers, to abort children, to disrespect and ignore the traditions of their families and religions,to use men like ATMs, to back-stab their friends and family members, and to take thousands upon thousands of family dollars for personal use in their missions to look like (and act like) teenagers.

* They are free to have children with as many men as they choose, and to bankrupt multiple men with mandatory child support payments. They are then free to ignore children by paying far more attention to maid-cleaned, spotless, and magazine-cover homes, where no cooking is achieved, no family memories are created, and no shoes are allowed to be worn on the white carpets of the “new” American home. They are free to give their children computer software to keep them addictively occupied for YEARS, and then complain about their lack of social skills.

* They are free to completely ignore the FACT that their children are SUFFERING with mean-spirited and incompetent mothers – children who are hungry, starved for attention, and mistreated by non-stop extracurricular sports regimens, drive-thru bags of dangerous food, teachers and public school indoctrination camps, completely ignored spiritual needs, and disrespect and contempt of their children’s fathers.

Sadly, this list has become the typical “home” scenario for America’s children and husbands. “Home” has become sterile because the women in American homes have lost their senses under the highly political guise of “liberation.” So, another question begs – what does liberation mean to American women? Does it mean the freedom to vote? Freedom from historical gender bondage? Freedom from ownership? I don’t think so. Today’s American female is free to be an idiot– a shallow, self-involved, pathologically vain, completely incompetent, and angry person – angry to the tune of making the anti-depressant industry the largest profit maker, bar none, for big pharma. Stupid is what stupid does.

American children do not have happy homes. They are television and computer addicts thanks, primarily, to mothers. So sorry, but facts are facts. American children have so many video games, movies, and “equipment,” that we now have to have “media rooms” to contain the sheer numbers of purchases made to very purposefully ignore our children. Then add to the mix that American women can’t and don’t cook. They don’t know how, and furthermore, between jobs, beauty and “health” regimens, and chronic diets, today’s mothers feel like crap most of the time, which translates into anger in the home. Just ask dad (or boyfriend).

I look at the history of women in other countries – nations without freedom – and our rapid march toward and beneath a new form of government – one in which freedoms are being incrementally dismantled and removed from the people. I observe state governors who are implementing reproductive legislation, as we speak, to curtail the rights of procreation, which, as we know, means the unalienable, primordial, and biological rights of women. I see men who are becoming more and more disenchanted with marriage – who fear what will happen should divorces ensue. I see the slutting up of American women in dress, demeanor, and attitude, and I see young American girls following suit. And I think of women in other nations, who have never had rights, and their treatment under nations and laws that label them as chattel, property, and for the most part, primarily vaginas and wombs. I worry about the mass, or shall we say “global” disenchantment of men with women. This history could (and has) set women back thousands and thousands of years.

Therefore, let us think candidly about freedom. Let us not continue to be foolish, cruel, stupid, lazy, shallow, and mean-spirited when it comes to the freedoms that America and her male gender allowed to transpire on our shores. You are very lucky women in this nation. To mishandle that freedom is dangerous specifically to women and children. And in today’s world, You are desperately needed to be intelligent handlers of our homes and children. You need to educate your children in the home. You need to eliminate family debt and to stock and store our home pantries and family supplies. You need to reconnect to your biological and intuitive natures, and with that said, you must reconnect to your spiritual natures and needs as women. You must be ultimately careful that you do not become what you loathe.

Anger has become a base point for many American women, and I suspect that anger stems from self-loathing, guilt, and boredom.If you’re running around shopping, spa-ing, working out, visiting therapists, tanning, bleaching, manicuring, and paying servants to perform all standards tasks in your homes, you are not operating as a woman and certainly not as a mother to your children.

[malign]

"[W]why are American women ... so incredibly stupid with their freedom?"

Because they're not that different from American men? Lots of people do stupid things with their freedom. The difficult part is that most people don't change because someone else thinks they should. In the long run, we're repeatedly confronted with the truism that the only person we can do anything about is ourselves.

Are you talking about all American women, here, or some in particular? Because I've certainly met some, probably a majority, who don't do the things you're describing. Just because they can be done in our society, or that some are doing them, doesn't mean everyone is doing them, after all.

Personally, I think some of the problem is the perception that "men" form one monolithic block, and "women" form another one, and that they don't understand each other. I think people are more alike than that; I think we all do things that could be seen as hurting society, and I think we all are able to do better if we try. It's just a lot easier to see other people's failings than our own.

[JaiJai]

...........

[Wutty3]

Exactly the type of responses I was expecting. Will wait for more responses before I continue on this thread.

[JaiJai]

............

[Wutty3]

Jai Jai My controversial post are actually the words of a woman. Nancy Levant from her book "The Cultural Devastation of American Women" that I read with great interest and agree with whole heartedly.

Synopsis by Amazon.com... In this book The Cultural Devastation of American Women is a factual investigation into the American woman’s abuse of liberation. Levant burrows into the psyches and habits of American women. She exposes over-spending, over-decorating, obsessions with beauty, weight, social climbing, and the hiring out of traditional female functions. All of these demonstrate a rejection of biological instincts and behaviors. Levant exposes demanding, unreasonable, and incompetent mothers. She delves with brutal frankness into women and marriage, child rearing, divorce, hypochondria, self-absorption, and vanity, challenging the assumption that Westernized society freed women from social bondage. Levant calls for a critical evaluation of womanhood in 21st Century America. The Cultural Devastation of American Women is reckoning day for American women as readers of all ages and political persuasions find complete agreement with the proof of the voices of suffering children. By including the commentary of daycare children to create premise and purpose Levant allows our children to report on the current state of parenthood, home life, and themselves.

It is all about the children is it not? I hope that you are able to acquire this book and "read it with an open mind...but not so open that your brain falls out".

JaiJai...I feel the anger and disappointment in your replies to this post. You are young and probably think that most facets of human existence should be gender neutral...The idea that men should be men and women should be women is probably a quaint old fashioned idea to you. I have news for you...until we able to artificially able to create a human baby (It could happen in your lifetime), in one form or another,It still takes a man and a woman to make a baby. Unfortunately, with all the "liberation", some people (both men and women) think that relieves them of the consequences of their actions. For example, Sally boffs Billy in a cheap hotel after a night of drinking and debauchery and gets pregnant...It's OK, she didn't mean to get pregnant...there are no consequences... They just go to Planned Parenthood and kill their unborn child. Problem solved. Doesn't matter that there are couples that can't have children for one reason or another and would be delighted to adopt an unwanted baby into a loving home. This is culturally acceptable in our society. Not too helpful to the children if they're dead is it?.

I'm not going to belabor the points made in the post about "stupidities" They stand for themselves. Women's Liberation has a bright side for the advancement of women in our society but it also has a dark under-belly that many men and women are in denial about at their own peril.

[IrmaJean]

I hope we can keep the conversation respectful.

There are a lot of diverse views out there and individuals will have different politics about hot-button topics. One thought I have is that if is there is a lot of energy and emotion invested in a topic, there could be something about the topic that feels personal. Maybe it might be helpful to look at that?

[Wutty3]

I have no desire to rock anyone's boat. In fact I like JaiJai a lot. Her and I both apparently feel very strongly about our respective points of view on this topic. I hope JaiJai will set aside her anger and approach this subject with an open mind. She has the opportunity to change my mind. I will listen. As a product of the 1960's with a conservative upbringing how can I be silent or indifferent when avarice, greed, vanity, and immorality threaten our very existence as a nation...Remember the Romans Greeks and Egyptians? History has a way of repeating itself if we fail to see the traps that those ancient civilizations fell into..

[ShameOnThem]

I'm also interested in having discussions about the issues instead of attacking eachother.

Holy god.

I did not just read a bunch of archaic b·s about how women were ALLOWED to be equal to men and have the freedom to make their own choices on an sps forum, and have curtailed the well being of all westetn society.

Could you please elaborate what the fuck the "sps forum" part has to do with this statement? Women and men are equal, they should be treated as such. Most smart people agree. Why is it surprising to find an insenstive, sexist opinion on an SPS forum? I hope you mean that the discussions should be limited issues of sps support and I am just being overly sensitive here. I would think that sexism would be more expected within the realm of sps support than in general discussion. But back to the issues.

I would argue that the male shaming, you find so deplorable, is in part, a backlash, of the way men have objectified women since the beginning of days. And although i dont think 2 wrongs make a right, it certainly would be a novel example of men recieving 'a taste of their own medicine'.

No no no no no no x1000. I agree with your first sentence, but take issue with "backlash". Men shame other men for having small penises. That is not a backlash, that's just patriarchy. Women shame other women about having small boobs or dry elbows. That is not backlash, that's just patriarchy. The concept of a superior and inferior body is propagated by both members of sexes, and it's fucked up in all instances.

And I don't think I could disagree with a statement more than the second sentence. The patriarchy that we all live in was around before myself or any of us were born, so how is it my medicine to take? I get that men benefit from the system, but are we individually responsible? What about male feminists, should I feel like my body is wrong? Are there not some women who are (unconscious or not)supporters of the patriarchy when they buy tabloids, cast shame, belittle each other, and enable shitty male behavior? You are right that two wrongs don't make a right, though. It's not about who's medicine it is to take, it's about ending this fucking nightmare.

I don't agree with what wutty is saying. AT ALL. I start to read it, and am repulsed by it's insensitivity to issues of racism, sexism, and cultural superiority. It pains me that his views are given the same breaths that mine are, and it makes me want to scream. Choose to chide him if you want, but you need to understand where you are. I am here for help, don't tell me I deserve the shit I get because I get less of it than some other group of people. That's counterproductive and illogical.

I think this undertone of women hating I've witnessed in this and other discussion with men on the internet is in some instances a reaction to the pressure we receive from the patriarchy, coupled with an ignorance to the nature(or existence) of the patriarchy. When I don't like my body because all around me it is reinforced that I am inadequate or unwanted, there will be anger directed at someone or something. That's why I think Feminism is important, because there are women who want me, to whom I would be more than adequate. Same goes for the women who do immeasurable harm to their minds and bodies trying to become desirable. The problem isn't me or them or how desirable one is, the problem is the fucked up system that insists we aren't all equal. That our commonly accepted right to equal treatment doesn't also include the equal right to happiness with one's self.

Of course there are always some men and women who are genuinely bad people(wutty, I'm not talking about you, I'm only commenting on what you said in this thread, my jury is almost always still out when dealing with people), but we should hate individuals due their individual actions, not groups because of our own prejudgment. Nobody should hate all women or all men (or all Blacks, or all Muslims, or all rich people... etc.) because every person is different, and most everyone I have dealt with are good people at heart.

-Chris

[Wutty3]

From Nancy Levant"s book >>> Look at the history of women in other countries – nations without freedom – and our rapid march toward and beneath a new form of government – one in which freedoms are being incrementally dismantled and removed from the people. I observe state governors who are implementing reproductive legislation, as we speak, to curtail the rights of procreation, which, as we know, means the unalienable, primordial, and biological rights of women. I see men who are becoming more and more disenchanted with marriage – who fear what will happen should divorces ensue. I see the slutting up of American women in dress, demeanor, and attitude, and I see young American girls following suit. And I think of women in other nations, who have never had rights, and their treatment under nations and laws that label them as chattel, property, and for the most part, primarily vaginas and wombs. I worry about the mass, or shall we say “global” disenchantment of men with women. This history could (and has) set women back thousands and thousands of years. <<<You must have missed this part. Tell Ms Levant she is wrong...and where she is wrong.