devils daughter

So sorry you’re having a bad time, PP. You don’t suck – although LaLa posted an article about anger in therapy last year that I found relevant. Sounds like maybe you’re directing realistic anger about life against yourself? If so, that situation really sucks and I know it well. Actually, for me, it was RAGE against life. I got better – that’s actually a catch phrase on an alternative mental health site that I’ve seen. But realistically, in the world, here’s what’s going on for me: I continued therapy and also went to a peer-support center after Mother died almost a year and a half ago with the goal of “re-socializing” myself. That wasn’t something that they offered, exactly, but the certified peer specialists have the goal of supporting people attain their own goals, so it kind of fit together. Not “perfectly”, as in what I thought and felt I needed, but not a terrible off-fit either. Best resource I could find in my area, so I took advantage of it. Doesn’t “fit” much anymore, but there is a computer website called “Meetup.com” here in the US where people with similar interests can get together and talk. I signed up for some starting last December and that is going OK. Last Tuesday, I went to an investment seminar (appropriate for retired people my age) and really enjoyed it. I left and started crying in my car “I’m so sorry, God, that I’ve been so mean and hateful these last 15 years (since my husband died).” That was the little girl in me. The adult knows I did the best I could, and though the feeling of grief was overwhelming, I got over it. Grief over lost time is normal, according to my T. Still tough to feel. Hope this helps. I’m not on here often much these days either. Still, I’m glad to read what’s going on with you. Hope it’s better soon.

A neurobiological theory that a therapist recommended to me when I said that I didn’t understand the dynamics of a conflict that a friend and I were having: http://www.stephenporges.com/Images/Nexus%20interview.pdf

Hi daydreaming, I can really relate to despising myself, as you have written about in your post. It’s taken a while, but psychotherapy has helped. Actually, it’s more than helped. And it’s core issue—how can one be motivated to do anything for oneself if you hate yourself? I’m actually feeling happy some days. Motivated to find some joy, not just miserable all the time and feeling that I don’t deserve any better. Had someone say they liked me yesterday and I doubted it momentarily but didn’t disbelieve them. So. . . change is possible but I don’t think we can do it all by ourselves. And in addition to therapy, I have gone to several support groups. They have been for me “safe environments” where I could be myself, as bad as I felt at times, and they listened and didn’t throw me out, as I guess that was my basic fear.

Nice match and "back at me", finding. ;-) Thanks. And shows me what it feels like in a way I couldn't understand otherwise.

Yes, 'finding', I do think that makes sense. For me, it also relates back to Dr. Kathy’s article on anger where she said that anger was an APPROACH emotion. Which, if one’s caretakers rejected the anger, then it can leave a person in a catch-22. Attachment needs aren’t being met => become enraged (because that’s what the toddler/child is capable of) => get rejected by caretaker => attachment needs aren’t being met.. Eventually a child can just reject herself and numb out the need for attachment and related needs. But the needs are still there, perhaps deep in unawareness. And still associated with the negative ways of trying to get those needs met.

Here’s a good (I think) reference to something I alluded to in another thread. I’m guilty, too. But if we can come to an understanding of what is going on, then maybe we have a chance to make (and do) something better. http://www.relationalaggression.net/blog/what-is-relational-aggression/

No, it doesn't seem to me like "sly" is an unnecessarily negative characterization. It's unfortunate and sad but it's part of a bigger problem than Beth personally in my opinion. And actually my comment "(unconscious, I'm sure)" is part of that same. . . genre might be a way to describe it. Which I usually stay away from like the plague. Actually, I wasn't sure it's totally unconscious (I "white lied", not entirely consciously on my part, to maybe make my comment more socially acceptable) but I'm pretty sure that conscious Beth didn't intend to be invalidating. I was 'owning' my issues, or trying to, long before I started posting here. My choice of a username kind of says that, I think.

Thanks, Beth, a good way to start a New Year in the world for me. I’m glad my suspicions about my post being deleted didn’t come true in reality. Very likely, the invalidations I had experienced in my family in the past had been such that I had “deleted” myself. Perhaps obviously, it’s been the good therapy I’ve been getting (finally, over the last 4 years) that has allowed me to (gradually) undelete myself and try posting this now. I very much appreciate your understanding about what happened with you and how you felt defensive. Wouldn’t be surprised if that’s what happened to people who responded in ways that felt invalidating to me in the past. That's helpful, as I'm long past being angry with them personally but we don't talk about stuff. That makes a lot of sense to me, in that if a person -- or a part -- is stuck in narcissistic rage, then it feels helpful to me to have someone who can meet you with that. Which maybe was the point of the original article. Thanks, finding, and thanks to the internet -- you can't come back to old discussions that you walk away from IRL.

Can anyone else besides me see the (unconscious, I'm sure) sly invalidation and discounting here? Of COURSE the writer always respects other views. That's the socially acceptable thing to do. But mine wasn't just a view. It was a visceral response that had been invalidated over and over throughout my life and continued to be unseen or minimized or . . . just ignored. . .over therapy after therapy, mostly with other females. That same writer has, on occasion, been very supportive of another female who has been very outspoken in her attacks on other people. I'm not sure what's up with that but it seems similar to what Jeep was writing about in his "Leaving the forum" thread. As I wrote in a long (possibly unintelligible) post in that thread, I'm not suggesting that any of this is conscious on the part of the writer -- but that's what I'm complaining about!! It's overlooked in the whole society! Maybe this will provide an opportunity for real learning and discussion? If it doesn't get deleted by the mods. Anyway, the discussion in this thread is why I pretty much stopped posting here almost a year ago. No need to make an announcement, that I could see.

IMHO the whole world has been so focused for 2000 years or more on male aggression, e.g. in the form of wars, and how to deal with it or prevent it that we hardly even SEE female aggression. Mostly that’s because, again IMHO, it’s been female to/with other females and – who would notice that? Physical survival comes first, but now that we (as a world) are doing pretty well in that department – well, maybe we’re beginning to notice. Look at all the websites devoted “narcissistic mothers”, for instance. I’m an old lady and I OWN (mostly, as much as I can) my narcissism/sense of self issues and am beginning to be able to stand my ground with other women who attack either directly or passive-aggressively. Actually, I did that with Jai Jai several years ago and she backed down. First time ever for me. Easier online than in person, but I’m beginning to be able to do it in person, too. It’s not just “narcissistic mothers” who are the problem. People in general need to wake up. IMHO it’s a cultural pattern that needs to be unfrozen, not unlike my personal psychological defense patterns. I’ve done the work on me – hopefully others can unfreeze and wake up, too. Thanks for the post, Jeep. Would you like to stick around to talk about this issue?

So glad to hear from you! Figured that must have been why/where you've been gone. In the south of England? or somewhere closer to home. I'm doing good, continuing to progress. Recovery is possible!! Hope your NHS is going to help it happen relatively early in life for you!

Cool!! (Yes, I've been thinking about the history we talked about but then . . . too much going on to mention. . . just wanted you to know how I appreciate this link. Thanks!!)

Sorry to hear things are so hard for you now, Mr. Epp. I can identify with your situation, though in a roundabout way. My daughter probably felt the same way about me – only I was seeking treatment, it just wasn’t working or helping fast enough. I live in another city so I wasn’t with her that much, but I was very anxious when I was – so that didn’t really help. Is it realistically possible that you could move somewhere on your own and out of the city? I know how hard it is when you have mental illness yourself and need some help. Is there any government or maybe other help that might be available for you? It might help you get some “distance” – both psychologically as well as physically -- from everything, even if you want to see your mother sometimes – just not as frequently! Just a thought. Hope things improve soon.

First of all, I think it’s wonderful that you have been able to be at home and take care of yourself, and your relationship, for two years. As you probably also know, it’s been my experience that talking therapy is limited, too – though here in the US it seems things may be improving. It may well be that in countries where there is a public health service, things may be better? IDK. The lack of a cohesive sense of who one is can cause intense anxiety. Talking therapy can be a cure (from my recent personal experience), but it takes time and the therapist has to be aware of the kinds of issues that underlie an unstable sense of self. Lots of them didn't understand that about me, and probably they didn't have good information, training, etc. And there's been some good new information about these conditions in recent years. To guard against therapy not working, or even being harmful, here are some cautions that I would offer to you. Maybe the therapists should tell people this in advance, too, but maybe they haven't known it. So, it's up to us: if the therapy or the relationship with the therapist doesn’t seem to be working then the client has to (1) try to discuss the problems the client feels about the therapist, with the therapist, and (2) find another therapist if the issues can’t be resolved. Resolving issues in the therapy is usually considered an important part of the therapy. But it’s frequently very stressful. And sometimes it cannot be done. If so, the client has to move on. Most well-qualified therapists will tell you – and may give you tests to help them assess – if they think you may have a condition like I described. What you wrote: Is a fine opening “complaint” to present to the therapist (like “my stomach hurts” to a doctor), and a good reason why you are interested in seeing if talking therapy can help. But be careful and don't expect too much of yourself at first. Just my opinions, of course.

50 years ago, yes, I wasn't ready. At the time, though, therapists (Freudians, then) didn't think that personality disorders were treatable so probably nobody tried, either. In the last 20 years or so, no, I don't think so. More likely, several therapeutic failures were iatrogenic. Surgeons are fallible, too -- and when they cut out the wrong kidney or something do we say that the patient wasn’t sure which kidney s/he wanted removed? Sorry if that sounds sarcastic -- I don't know how else to express it well. I'm pretty sure my current therapist and the consultant who referred me to her would agree with me, though. And I'll be glad to write a brief history of my experiences over the last 20 years if anybody is interested -- probably should be on another thread, though.