I'm not normal

[siddiqui]

Today I've had enough. As of a few minutes ago I was swallowed by immense rage, feelings of betrayal, and hopelessness. I almost destroyed everything in my house. Broke a table before I calmed myself down. I've had issues with body image for couple of years now, and for good reason too. And it's not irrational because every time I do develop an issue with some part of my body, it is because it is suddenly painfully revealed to me like an abrupt realization and comparison has to do a lot with that.

I was fine with my body a few years ago. Towards the end of high school, I started noticing that I had wider hips than usual and bigger thighs and butt. I saw that I had bigger teeth that were overcrowded. My stupid dentist used to say that I would gain height. I knew that was bull**** (I haven't gained an inch since I first saw my dentist btw). But these things didn't bother me as much. I started medical school and that's when I really started to see what might be 'normal'. You examine patients everyday and they're as diverse as you can get. I remember reading about klinefelter's and getting shocked when I saw the picture because good god it looked like me. I started to realize then that I had long arms and legs and short torso. I thought I should get checked but I never had the courage to go through with it.

My friends and I were practising the abdominal exam and they could feel the lower border of my liver. Normally you don't feel the lower border of a person's liver when examining because it usually ends behind the ribs, unless it is enlarged due to disease or, as I found out later, if you have a short torso. I saw pictures of marfan syndrome and thought I had that. Similar picture, tall person with long arms and legs, short torso but also small head. I am 5'11" in height . I just shrugged because in medical school you realize humans come in all shapes and sizes and I didn't have a small head. But then after one summer I shaved my head and I was the butt of all jokes for a month or so. They called me rat child. You can search 'rat children' in google images. I had a small flat head. I hated that part of my life. I found I had arachnodactyly to some extent (search it, it's long fingers like in marfan syndrome). I have a drooping neck with winged shoulders that often protrude. A doctor I was doing a clinic with assuaged my fears when he said that all I had was a marfanoid habitus (body type) and had nothing to worry as it can be pretty common. But still I was bothered that I had thing long arms and legs and skin that was almost elastic.

I then started noticing that when other guys wore swim briefs or trunks you could see their bunched up genitals. You couldn't easily see mine. And then I started seeing patient's penises. Of course, I had seen porn and the well-endowed penises it stars but that's just porn right? Not until you see patients. My penis is just over 2 inches long when flaccid and 4 inches in length with 4 inches of girth when erect (I know how to properly measure a penis). I noticed my testicles looked smaller too. I had anxiety because of that. I never wanted anyone to see me in briefs let alone naked. I wasn't sexually active, have never had sex, more to do with the culture here I guess although it's not abnormal to have premarital sex here.

I had less male pattern hair. My chest wasn't exactly male-like. I was sort of convinced I had some problem. I had my testosterone levels checked (early morning levels) and they were 600. Males my age usually have it above 600, so I was normal but lower limit. The doctor said there was nothing to worry about but I wasn't convinced. I had a feminine body. My facial hair came around 20 years old and only when I was 22 did I have facial hair that guys get when they're 19 and that was after I illegally used testosterone for some months.

I started growing more weary of the size of my penis when some girls did admit that a proportionately appropriate penis is attractive (average or big). None of them had had sex but medical literature often does conclude that for some women smaller than average penises just don't do it for them, After finding that out I just became so hopeless, I felt I was worthless. I felt really hurt when I read forums online where girls say out of pity size doesn't really matter and it;s all about what you can do with it and if she cares for size then she's a slut, which is bull*** because medical literature does say otherwise. Humans are the only primates that have large penises and there are theories as to why. Most widely accepted is that it was sexual selection, meaning that it wasn't helpful in survival but it just got selected because females like it. Something like a peacock's feathers that hamper it's defenses and make it more vulnerable to predators when its feathers are up but females select those with the biggest and brightest. Today I just came across some sites where girls were really open and admitted that a larger or even an average penis is always better than a penis that is smaller than average. I was very very very hurt. I suddenly became filled with rage. I felt betrayed like it was unfair for me to have all these things. I know in the back of my head that a lot of people have it worse, people with serious handicaps. But god does this make me angry. I fell extremely hurt that I won't be able to attract someone absolutely positively. That hurt somehow translated to rage. Hell I can be nice and everything but for what. I can't go on typing now. I will upload pictures soon if I can. Sorry, my thoughts aren't very organized right now.

height - 179.5 cm (5'11")

armpan - 191 cm

leg length - 103 cm (from ASIS to medial maleolus)

torso - 43 cm

[malign]

Here's a difficulty, if you're going to be reading stuff online:

"I felt really hurt when I read forums online where girls say out of pity size doesn't really matter" and

"Today I just came across some sites where girls [said the opposite]. I was very very very hurt."

In other words, you're already hurt (on the inside) because you believe that you're not normal. Or rather, that the ways you're "not normal" are bad in some way.

I'm not normal: I'm shorter than the average for where I live (U.S.), I'm smarter than average (I assume you are too if you're in med school), I'm hairier than average (I was very shy about letting people see me without a shirt for a long time), and so on. In fact, no one is exactly average.

What's important here is the belief of being less worthwhile because of one's differences. So all the medical stuff about exactly what's wrong with you, or what people say on surveys, doesn't actually matter. What matters is that you already feel less worthwhile; anything that contradicts your belief will seem to be "pity", and anything that agrees with what you already believe will be accepted without question. The result is that you're going to feel worse and worse about yourself, unless you can reach that original belief and question it.

The anger component is also interesting. You feel betrayed (by whom?) Who did this to you? Are you angry at others for thinking you're ugly (you haven't mentioned anyone who has, except you) or are you angry at yourself for some reason?

[siddiqui]

I'm not normal: I'm shorter than the average for where I live (U.S.), I'm smarter than average (I assume you are too if you're in med school), I'm hairier than average (I was very shy about letting people see me without a shirt for a long time), and so on. In fact, no one is exactly average.

As a medical graduate I know very well no one is exactly normal. But goddamit I feel like I've got the brunt of what in this highly sexualized society is 'inadequate' with so many things other than just a small penis

What's important here is the belief of being less worthwhile because of one's differences. So all the medical stuff about exactly what's wrong with you, or what people say on surveys, doesn't actually matter. What matters is that you already feel less worthwhile; anything that contradicts your belief will seem to be "pity", and anything that agrees with what you already believe will be accepted without question. The result is that you're going to feel worse and worse about yourself, unless you can reach that original belief and question it.

I really don't want any pity on this forum. I want to learn how to deal with this. I really want to. I'm fed up. I've seen my mom live her life with vitiligo with such confidence as if it wasn't even there. I really wish I had her confidence.

The anger component is also interesting. You feel betrayed (by whom?) Who did this to you? Are you angry at others for thinking you're ugly (you haven't mentioned anyone who has, except you) or are you angry at yourself for some reason?

For some reason I felt the word betrayal was right when I was typing. Like I was dealt a very bad hand, a very bad one. I just suddenly felt angry as having to have to play with that hand meant not a lot.

" Are you angry at others for thinking you're ugly (you haven't mentioned anyone who has, except you) or are you angry at yourself for some reason?"

Well people have made fun of my head, my teeth, my absence of a bulge. But who wouldn't??

[malign]

I wasn't pitying you. You feel bad; we both know it; but me lying to you won't change anything, so I'll be quite careful to tell you what I see as the truth. But I do reserve the right to think that my truth, at least, may be different from yours. Conversely, I won't be telling you that you're "wrong", just that I may disagree.

So ... it seems interesting that your mother has lived confidently with vitiligo; it gives us a potential role model to work with. For instance, do you know how she feels about the "hand" that she was dealt? I assume you feel that your "hand" is worse ... Have you ever had the chance to talk with her about how she felt, and maybe even about how you feel?

As for the "hand": who do you see as the "dealer"? It would make a difference, for instance, whether you were angry at genetics, say, or at a deity who made things the way they are ...

Edited April 10, 2013 by malign
Typo

[siddiqui]

So ... it seems interesting that your mother has lived confidently with vitiligo; it gives us a potential role model to work with. For instance, do you know how she feels about the "hand" that she was dealt? I assume you feel that your "hand" is worse ... Have you ever had the chance to talk with her about how she felt, and maybe even about how you feel?

My mother is naive. Although she is a doctor too. Has seen everything. Appearance didn't matter much to her. It was an arranged marriage. Still she's happy with who she is. Whenever I've talked to her about her condition she tells me that she never looked at it as abnormal. She believes that people don't notice it because the condition itself doesn't bother her. But I have several things to deal with, most important of which is my penis size. My mother knows that I have often mentioned 'marfanoid habitus', long armspans and other stuff as being abnormal and I put up a facade that says it affects me but doesn't affect me too much. I have only once mentioned it to her that I might not be adequate down there and she just asked me to focus on my studies and not bother about it unless you can do something about it.

As for the "hand": who do you see as the "dealer"? It would make a difference, for instance, whether you were angry at genetics, say, or at a deity who made things the way they are ...

Genetics is everything.

[malign]

Well, genetics is a lot, but I'm not sure it's everything. I had an uncle who walked with crutches and had to have his wife help him tie his shoes, due to a polio infection when he was a boy. Still, he drove a specially-adapted car (with hand controls) and worked most of his life as a medical aide of some sort. It's not so much the "hand" that you're dealt as how you play it, as any good poker player will tell you.

I used to think my mother was naive, too, even though she had been in the Air Force in WWII, was divorced, had children, and so on. Looking back, I wonder whether I just misunderstood her ... I'm now about the age that she was when I first formed that opinion, and now I wonder whether I was just too young to tell the difference between someone who's naive and someone whose life has taught them a different set of priorities.

I guess life would be a bit different in a culture of arranged marriages. I gather that the culture has changed, and that would not be acceptable to you. Would it be prying to ask how your parents related to each other? How did your father treat your mother?

You said she "believes that people don't notice it because the condition itself doesn't bother her." Could it be that in fact she realizes that people notice it, but that the noticing doesn't bother her? Maybe she doesn't care what people think about her skin coloring ... I was going to state my opinion, but it's probably better to ask you yours: do you think that her skin color variations make a difference to who she is as a person? Do you think she's ugly?

[siddiqui]

Life might be different in a culture or arranged marriages (which was prevalent in her time). Yes it has changed. Definitely. My parents are cousins as well. My father treats my mother with the utmost respect. I've never seen a more pious person than my father

I meant both, she realizes that people notice it but it doesn't bother her, and she truly doesn't care what people think of her white patches. No I never thought she was ugly. There are times when I wonder why she didn't get braces when she had the opportunity to get them for free (when she was in med school). Her teeth are overcrowded and not at all aligned. But she just carried herself (and still does) that you don't notice those things Tells me that looks didn't bother her

I'D LIKE TO POINT OUT THAT WE ARE DIGRESSING!!

[malign]

From what are we digressing? I was simply asking questions about how significant people in your life have handled their own "imperfections", because that's relevant to how you will.

So, for instance, it seems possible that other people might react towards your "habitus" the same way you react towards your mother's vitiligo, and more importantly, it may be possible for you to imagine treating whatever disproportion you feel you have in the same way she treats her vitiligo, as something that is in fact fundamentally irrelevant to who she is as a person. In particular, one might make the case that anything that a person can't prevent about themselves is, for that very reason, not their problem. {That's how I feel about my baldness, for instance.}

It seems fairly pointless to discuss with you whether or not you "truly" are "normal", because you've already made it clear what you think. I can't change you into what you wish for, or tell you that it doesn't matter, because clearly it does matter to you. It's irrelevant whether it would matter to me, or anyone else, so where does that leave me, conversationally?

[siddiqui]

Sorry I was taking time to think about this. I have been reading other posts.

We are digressing because the imperfections that significant people in my life have had to deal with had nothing to do with the one tool that is not just another attribute but a tool that you use for the ultimate sexual union, which therefore defines your sexual prowess. Whatever defines your sexual prowess also defines a VERY large portion of your self-esteem. Which is why, as of yet, I can't treat it like my mother treats her vitiligo because it is not fundamentally irrelevant to who I am as a person. It is how men are wired. It is very relevant to how I see myself. I want to be able to have as much a life as any man with an average sized penis. I know that I simply won't be able to perform to the standards of average sized men.

And it is also inherently wired in a woman to think the way she does and I believe it is offensive to call them size queens. Those women who say they have transcended such desires are those that have just "accepted" such men. I mean good for them, but I do not want to aim for having relationships with just people who could "accept" me.

A natural corollary is that sex will never happen according to my fleshy hedonistic fantasies while it does for 90% of people out there with average sizes. I want to have the right to make meaningful experiences, not get laughed at.

Also it's not a made up imperfection that for example leads to eating disorders. I do have a 4 inch penis, very tangible, concrete evidence for it.

"In particular, one might make the case that anything that a person can't prevent about themselves is, for that very reason, not their problem. {That's how I feel about my baldness, for instance.}"

See that I cannot do anything about it is exactly why I feel hopeless, frustrated and angry. But the thing is IT IS my problem, so you're wrong there, because down the line it would define sexaul relationships to a very great extent. I HATE that won't be liked as an average sized man. Absolutely nothing can be done. For baldness though there are definitive treatments. None for this.

I've been reading a lot of other posts on this small penis forum and this response looks a lot like an amalgamation of those threads but I can't help they all really resonate with me. I'm really sorry if it looks like I plagiarized.

[malign]

"... the one tool ... that you use for the ultimate sexual union, which therefore defines your sexual prowess."

Well, this is part of the misunderstanding that underlies a lot of the concerns you've obviously been reading. First off, if that's the only tool you use, I can guarantee you that the majority of your partners aren't going to be satisfied. Your "prowess" will be defined by a lot of different things, at least some of which won't even be physical ...

Most women (and probably most men, if they're honest) are going to react at least as much out of how they feel about the person they're having sex with, as they are to the physical stimulation. To put that another way, my hand already knows what I like; the reason to seek out another person is probably because you have some kind of feeling for them.

Let's keep in mind that selection by actual size is something that has been common for only a very short time, historically. Moral standards in most places at most times in history have not allowed women to shop around, except by the various indirect means that you hear about in old tales, such as big feet correlating to big penises. So this is a new phenomenon, but it's also a phenomenon that's difficult to measure, because we're bombarded by input, mostly advertising, which cannot be verified.

More important than all that, though, is that you already believe size matters. Therefore, to you, women who say size matters are just telling the truth, and women who say size doesn't matter are lying, for whatever reason. Can you see that you're just not going to accept any evidence that contradicts your belief? Yet there's no proof on either side, and in fact, you've never even encountered any woman who had a problem with your size. The only person who does seems to be you, because of things you've heard.

As someone who actually has had one or two sexual encounters, I can tell you that my personal experience is that "my fleshy hedonistic fantasies" have not resembled reality all that much. ;-) Who knows, I may have been lucky (or unlucky), or easy to please, or whatever. I don't know; I'm only me, and I'm just describing my reality.

[IrmaJean]

... the one tool ... that you use for the ultimate sexual union, which therefore defines your sexual prowess.

This comment stands out for me too. I understand that men can think differently and I respect that. Maybe it's okay, though, to allow the possibility for some other thoughts, especially when these thoughts are causing you pain?

'

What does "sexual union" mean to you? "Sexual prowess?" What kind of relationships are you seeking?

Edited April 12, 2013 by IrmaJean
adding

[siddiqui]

This comment stands out for me too. I understand that men can think differently and I respect that. Maybe it's okay, though, to allow the possibility for some other thoughts, especially when these thoughts are causing you pain?

'

What does "sexual union" mean to you? "Sexual prowess?" What kind of relationships are you seeking?

It is the ultimate sexual union that was designed by evolution for union. All other acts of sex are just something on the side. Makes me feel less of a man. I'd rather die than settle for 'oh you can always just do oral, play with finger and stuff'

I really can't explain. It's like forcing to rationalize something that is inherently an irrational emotion. Everyone has that irrational self. Irrationality is not an abnormality, only when it overwhelms you. Right now it does but I can't help it because it stems from my under average penis

[siddiqui]

Well, this is part of the misunderstanding that underlies a lot of the concerns you've obviously been reading. First off, if that's the only tool you use, I can guarantee you that the majority of your partners aren't going to be satisfied. Your "prowess" will be defined by a lot of different things, at least some of which won't even be physical ...

And that crushes me. My partner won't be staisfied with that ultimate union. I know my "prowess" is defined by a lot of different things. But penis size does contribute to a major chunk. Saying otherwise sounds like someone pitying me.

Most women (and probably most men, if they're honest) are going to react at least as much out of how they feel about the person they're having sex with, as they are to the physical stimulation. To put that another way, my hand already knows what I like; the reason to seek out another person is probably because you have some kind of feeling for them.

I'm not going to argue that. I just have to point to medical literature out there that does tell you that there is more pleasure for the woman with an average penis. More pleasure translates to stronger feelings of love. It's how our reward system is wired. If the woman gets more pleasure she'll seek that more and love that person more. Her subconscious mind tells her that the man with larger or even average junk is a better 'man'. You can't rewire 2 million years of evolution.

Let's keep in mind that selection by actual size is something that has been common for only a very short time, historically. Moral standards in most places at most times in history have not allowed women to shop around, except by the various indirect means that you hear about in old tales, such as big feet correlating to big penises. So this is a new phenomenon, but it's also a phenomenon that's difficult to measure, because we're bombarded by input, mostly advertising, which cannot be verified.

That's false. Selection by actual size has been there throughout history. It's the only reason why we are the only primates with such large penises. All other primate females did not place much emphasis on penis size and so it hasn't grown over the millions of years of evolution. However, women have been shopping around for 2 million years leading to the sexual selection of a larger penis. Like I explained above. It's something like a male peacock's feathers. Even though it is a huge disadvantage to fan out those large feathers as it hinders with balance and sight and what not and makes them vulnerable to prey. Stands to reason that evolution would have weeded it out. It hasn't because that female peacock has been liking the larger feathers for millions of years. Same with our penises

More important than all that, though, is that you already believe size matters. Therefore, to you, women who say size matters are just telling the truth, and women who say size doesn't matter are lying, for whatever reason. Can you see that you're just not going to accept any evidence that contradicts your belief? Yet there's no proof on either side, and in fact, you've never even encountered any woman who had a problem with your size. The only person who does seems to be you, because of things you've heard.

I believe in hard concrete evidence. Well-designed studies. Recently one came out that was flawed in design but that was just tabloid style. But there are others. I don't particularly like anecdotal evidence. Things like oh he has a small penis and his woman loves him. That's bull**** and you know it. But people seem to be moved by anecdotal evidence. If you want anecdotal evidence (which I don't like) just go search "boyfriend small penis" and see the women just trying to seek advice whether to leave the man or how to have sex or is he gay. You have no idea how that hurts. I don't know about your member but it's just a very strong feeling of hurt when your penis is small

As someone who actually has had one or two sexual encounters, I can tell you that my personal experience is that "my fleshy hedonistic fantasies" have not resembled reality all that much. ;-) Who knows, I may have been lucky (or unlucky), or easy to please, or whatever. I don't know; I'm only me, and I'm just describing my reality.

You know what I meant by fleshy hedonistic fantasies. Everyone has those. Most people obviously don't meet them (ergo the label 'fantasy') but you know what I meant. I can't do what anyone with an average penis can do.

[siddiqui]

One of my biggest fear this days is that I won't be able to penetrate. I've heard stories of guys my size who can't and they have to do others stuff. How would I mentally be able to deal with that!

hey dude if you don't mind me asking what size are you .. myself I am about 4inches and super skinny .. yeah I have a few horror stories of that myself I don't know if its because I'm a fat ass or whatever but I did find it pretty hard to penetrate .being ridden one girl asked if I was in no guy wants to here that while she just while she made small backwards and forward rubbing motion and trying other positions was horrendous just poking my tip in I'm sure the few girls I have made love 2 didn't enjoy it to much ... It's like I need to stick a toy onto my penis just to add up to a real bloke just to have sex now what girl is gonna settle down with a guy like that come on if they want a toy inside of them they would just be a lesbian like .. women want a made will settle for like 5inches + maybe some will settle for 4 but I hear guys saying 4inches thick is to thin I'm like 1inch around my penis super skinny what am I suppose to do really now can I feel like a real man a women wants a dick not a super small super skinny penis inside of a toy banging them away sadly I was born big il be happy at 6inches as long as I was thicker Down here where I live girls are total size queens my friend doesn't know I am small but at 5-6inches and pretty thick he works out got a great job flat ect and even he finds it hard to date so come on how is a guy half his size gonna date now his brother on the other hand wow what a life that guy has he is amazing looking big penis like a donkey he just walks up to girls in the street and says il gonna blunt here do you find me attractive ?? Girls yes .. him do you fancy coming for a coffee ..or can I have your number I have seem him do this then I have seen the pics the next day of the "deed" I can go out clubbing and pulling chicks il just be happy finding a girl that's ok with my size but what girl is really gonna to settle for a small skinny penis that can only poke his tip inside and keep coming out I'm sure it hurts just having a hard tip poking at you super fast ... There is a point where you are just to small for sex and maybe I am it

These people know what I mean. How can you live life knowing what these people know or I know

[IrmaJean]

I do know how painful it is to feel "less than" from a sexual standpoint. I have felt like "less of a woman" in the past due to some physical issues and I know it hurts deeply. I also respect that my experience isn't the same.

Do you ever wonder why we were designed by evolution, so to speak, to feel love?

You have your definition of the perfect sexual union. I respect your feelings. I'll share my feelings. For me this is about sharing oneself physically, spiritually, and emotionally with the person you love. It isn't about anatomy or performance. It's about connecting with another human being. If it's a part of the person I love, it's beautiful. I believe there are women out there who would love, respect, and appreciate you exactly as you are.

More pleasure translates to stronger feelings of love.

I'm thinking of this the other way around. Stronger feelings of love translates to more pleasure.

Just offering my personal thoughts...

[siddiqui]

I'm thinking of this the other way around. Stronger feelings of love translates to more pleasure.

It is a cycle. It's how the brain's reward system works.

I want to post my problems on the small penis forum. I posted it under 'New members post here', but I want to post it over there. I wanted to ask if I could do that, the two of you being admins

[malign]

One point is that because we're conscious beings, we're in charge of our reward systems.

You're welcome to post whatever you like, wherever you like, siddiqui. You could start a new thread in SPS, or we could move this one; your choice.

[siddiqui]

One point is that because we're conscious beings, we're in charge of our reward systems.

You're welcome to post whatever you like, wherever you like, siddiqui. You could start a new thread in SPS, or we could move this one; your choice.

Can we move this one?

[malign]

Your wish is my command, said the guy with the magic carpet ...

If you refresh your browser, you should be in a different room.

[siddiqui]

lol thanks!

[dvnJ22]

I'm not normal either. I'm only 5 foot 4, way below in penis size - smaller than you and smaller than most of the members on this site, I have a weird personality, mentally ill, I was born with deformed knee caps. I am just one big mistake, the good news is nature will correct it some day.

[Victimorthecrime]

What is the nature of your mental illness dvnJ22? I have low self esteem, am anxious, probably depressed, to name a few.

[dvnJ22]

I have major depression, OCD, anxiety, I had a psychotic break when I was 16 that was really bad and it lasted for 3 years... No one thought I was going to recover, everybody including myself thought I was going to end up in prison or mental hospital becuase of the way I was acting - I was gone from reality for such a long time.... Sometime I miss it though, when I was psychotic I knew who I was and everything in a weird way made sense.

[Victimorthecrime]

Wow a psychotic break, that must have been intense. Well glad to hear it ended. I have had racing thoughts, intrusive thoughts, and one bad LSD trip many many years ago. More & more people are developing mental illness I believe due to economic insecurity, difficulty in getting quality affordable healthcare, fear of criminals, lonely people living in semi isolation, a hard course mean spirited culture, & life being little more than endless work and troubles. I am sometimes amazed I am not on a psych ward or on medication although i am thinking if looking into the latter.

[dvnJ22]

Honestly I wish I still had hallucinations, but then again it ruined a lot of goals. I wanted to become a missionary, but because I need meds I can't do it... Since the program won't be able to pay for it.

People have mental illness because of genetics, but more so because of lack of guidance in this world. Mentally and spirtually we are weak and empty, so we fill it with material things or pleasure - avoiding the actually problem. The west is impoverished in its wisdom, philosophy is dead, and so all we have Richard Dawkins are hitchens debating with some southern preacher.... That's about it as far as philosophy. Technology has made things easer, and in the processes made us lazy. Researchers say that if brought someone back from ancient Athens - they would be smarter.