Deletions, A Discussion

[IrmaJean]

I think what it shows, Calla, is your strength and courage as you found your way through the pain that night. I would see it as a record of your progress that is truly inspirational and may well inspire others. It's difficult to look at one's own frailties at times, but this is proof that we are human and every one of us has our moments. I sure have mine...and still very often do. (Check back to the beginning of this thread, for instance ) It gives hope that all of us can find our center and fight our way out of the darkness and back into the light. Maybe you might think of it as a way of knowing you can do this and there is the proof.

[eNIGMA]

Do others fear being judged, not just here, but, everywhere?

Allan

I don't fear being judged here. Because here, if need be, I can call someone out on the ridiculousness of their pre-programmed morality, without fear of losing my job or going to prison for having committed absolutely no "crime".

Elsewhere, hell yes. Ignorance is a frightening thing, and it's quite adept at breeding.

[DahliMOMMA]

I don't fear being judged here. Because here, if need be, I can call someone out on the ridiculousness of their pre-programmed morality, without fear of losing my job or going to prison for having committed absolutely no "crime".

Elsewhere, hell yes. Ignorance is a frightening thing, and it's quite adept at breeding.

eNIGMA...Isn't part of being on a site like this being evaluted by peers: yes, 'judged' in some sense?? All members her are looking for feedback, a place to vent or find support...a secure place.

I understand that the anonymity of the site is of great appeal to you in that you are protected from being subjected to 'real world' persecution. But being judged is a reality, not necessarily due to 'pre-programed morality' but on other deeper levels of your personality/ perceived behavior toward others. I hope that your responses of 'calling people out' isn't assuming their response are only due to differences in morality driven opinion...members are capable of so much more. Responding only in attacking their intelligence and moral compass creates a uncomfortable environment for all, even though you may find it immensely rewarding to feel you are putting people in their place.

eNIGMA, you are capable of being more than a one note band...if you expand past "I can't be fired or jailed and I'll let any over-moral idiot have it" you may get a slightly more receptive 'tune' as well! I have read you being supportive in some areas, and then a completely different quality in other posts that concerns me. Not in your right to defend your philosophical viewpoint but in the tone you take toward those who may disagree.

To the topic: I think self-editing is something that should be available to individual members, but done with self-reflection of WHY we are choosing to do so. Beyond that editing/deleting by mods should be limited and when the site dynamic is severely compromised. (and generally speaking I have seen it done well so far) If anything: locking posts getting out of hand, after warnings seems to work. The main thing is to treat fellow members with the respect for differing opinions you seek here on this site. I also think members need to speak up sooner if they see a post 'going off the rails', so to speak.

[eNIGMA]

eNIGMA...Isn't part of being on a site like this being evaluted by peers: yes, 'judged' in some sense?? All members her are looking for feedback, a place to vent or find support...a secure place.

Much of my point in being here is to challenge popular misconceptions about pedophiles - Something I can't do in my day to day life. It's not just that people get their panties in a bunch about it - It's the vile, hateful, idiotic comments people make without any perspective whatsoever. All logic goes out the window.

So, there's a huge difference between being on here and being 'evaluated by my peers', and being evaluated by my neighborhood. Here, I'm more than happy to be judged. And likewise, more than happy to pick apart flawed logic. At home, I just have to play along - If you even try to challenge someone's ideas, they accuse you of being a (or being sympathetic to) pedophiles.

Mob mentality.

But being judged is a reality, not necessarily due to 'pre-programed morality' but on other deeper levels of your personality/ perceived behavior toward others.

When it comes to consensual sex of any kind, society's negative attitudes are purely pre-programmed. Were it not for centuries upon centuries of both direct and indirect religious influence, people would never come to think of sex as such a horrible thing. Or something that needed to be repressed until marriage. Or repressed until hitting some magical age that in no way represents someone's mental and/or biological capacity to make decisions about their own sexuality. Or that a comprehensive and standardized safe sex program couldn't be taught in early public education, where it's worked well in other nations.

So, it's definitely pre-programmed. A society that does not tolerate homosexuality, for example, has been taught or instructed in their intolerance. Individually, there may be different thoughts... but on the whole, it's society that makes the rules, and therefor, a misguided society that is dangerous.

I hope that your responses of 'calling people out' isn't assuming their response are only due to differences in morality driven opinion...members are capable of so much more. Responding only in attacking their intelligence and moral compass creates a uncomfortable environment for all, even though you may find it immensely rewarding to feel you are putting people in their place.

Calling people out for making rude comments about your feelings and your struggles is certainly rewarding on some level. I've been told numerous times on these very forums, that my feelings / thoughts are disgusting. I said prove it. They, of course, can't. So, if you're worried about an uncomfortable environment, then you're talking to the wrong guy.

I'm not going to lie and say I don't enjoy the process of making ignorant people look like clowns. But I certainly don't go out of my way to look for them, if that's what you mean.

eNIGMA, you are capable of being more than a one note band...if you expand past "I can't be fired or jailed and I'll let any over-moral idiot have it" you may get a slightly more receptive 'tune' as well! I have read you being supportive in some areas, and then a completely different quality in other posts that concerns me. Not in your right to defend your philosophical viewpoint but in the tone you take toward those who may disagree.

There's "disagree", and then there's calling someone out on unsubstantiated comments. I've never once just disagreed with someone for the sake of disagreeing. I say, "well, evidence points to the contrary" and proceed to list the evidence and links and quotes etc. If they want to refute that evidence, then I invite them to do so. It's when people try to debate something and have absolutely no facts, but yet keep insisting you're wrong... Well, then I'm not exactly going to be shy about letting them know they're being ridiculous.

As for the topic, I'm cool with my posts as long as I'm not showing up on a google search. I do check often. There's enough personally identifiable information up here, and, with the sensitive nature of my issues, I don't want to take risks.

So far so good, though.

[Symora]

Enigma, I get a sense that you don't care what anyone else thinks, it's all about you and your theories, and there lies the problem. This is a forum for people who are trying overcome issues that have caused them deep upset, trauma even, and one of the issues that causes them the pain is pedophelia - it hurts young people at the heart of their existence and it is harmful. You may have some great theories, and whatever proofs you can dig up to prove your theories, but you are not considering the feelings of people who lived very improper and traumatic events due to early sexual abuse. You do not seem sensitive to this fact. So please, the people here may be nice and tolerant, but we are not here to support you in proving your theory because you can't get the rest of society to buy into your ideas.

My daughter's friend, a little gangsta, comes here and self-righteously professes that pot will be legalized within 10 years, mark his words, a convenient self-delution that excuses his dealing it. The fact is that if he gets caught dealing right now, he is going down.

[Luna-]

Much of my point in being here is to challenge popular misconceptions about pedophiles...

... Calling people out for making rude comments about your feelings and your struggles is certainly rewarding on some level....

... if you're worried about an uncomfortable environment, then you're talking to the wrong guy...

... I'm not going to lie and say I don't enjoy the process of making ignorant people look like clowns...

eNIGMA:

We have said to you, numerous times, that this forum is not for debates and arguments. It is most certainly not for "making ignorant people look like clowns". You are playing an active role in making this forum an "uncomfortable environment" which is totally at odds which is what we are here for - to support one another.

You, as a person, are welcome here as is everyone. You are welcome to seek and give support. Others have given you support and accepted you, but you have not accorded them the same. This forum is not a soapbox.

The above was your last post on your mission to refute and debate and argue - and ignore our ethos of supporting each other in a safe community. Another one and I will ban you.

This is your last warning.

[notmary]

Thank you. I think that someone can state their beliefs and feelings without it being hostile.

I have tried to avoid this man's posts because I vehmently disagree with his message but also the "tone" he takes. I am glad that he admits his feeling wth that statement "making ignorant people look like clowns."

[David O]

eNIGMA,

Shakespeare's Queen Gertrude said to Hamlet: "Me thinks thou doth protest too much..." and with that I was wondering what lies behind this level of passion, vehemence and single minded focus. To insist, at the level at which you are doing, that those with "incorrect" views on pedophilia must be shamed and made to to look like clowns, strongly suggests that there may be other factors involved within you.

If your goal is to 'correct" members of the forum and set them straight, you must remember that it's not what you say that people remember or absorb, it's how they feel after you've spoken. It doesn't seem like your words are changing minds, but more so solidifying views and isolating you further.

With great sincerity and openness, I'm wondering if there might be something else at play here. If you want to debate with the world, there are many other sites available: if you want to contribute to the healing and well being of others here, then maybe being open about what is driving this may be the ticket. We are a self-help community and rely on each others' compassion, sincerity, understanding, warmth, wisdom, insights, and humor.

My hope is that you will become a part of the "family" and join us in assisting others thru your concerned, kind-hearted, caring and empathic words. If you insist, however, in browbeating members of the forum, no one will truly hear your words and the place where they are coming from-- and this is, after all, what we all want in life.

So, I invite you to speak from your heart as opposed to debating with others-- I invite you to show us your humanity, maybe share your pains or worries, or help us genuinely understand where this need is coming from. It may be thru this that we can offer you something more heartfelt and deeper than the shallow thrill of having "shamed" someone on the forum.

Trying to understand,

David

[eNIGMA]

< post deleted by Luna- >

Reason: Debating. Content not conducive to a caring, supportive environment

[David O]

There are too many members feeling unsafe and even threatened by incidents that have occurred here over the last few months. Over the year we've had several posters who's behavior bordered on detrimental and injurious to the community, and hurtful to specific members.

I would have preferred that eNIGMA choose to become more socially responsible and use his powers of intellect and logic in a caring and compassionate manner, thereby having a hugely positive and healing effect on the community. One cannot help but sense that his cause hid a deeper pain, or experience, and that it was only a sketch of something else.

[Luna-]

He is unfortunately now on a mission and has already created three clones, both of which we've also banned. We'd appreciate the help of anyone who may spot a clone before we do.

It really is a great pity that he didn't avail himself of what he was offered here. In particular, I thought your last post, David was very compassionate.

I guess we can't win them all.

[Guest ASchwartz]

Hi all,

It is clear to me that Enigma is on a mission to attempt to convince everyone that adult sex with children should be legal. His beliefs about this are totally absurd. I do not believe this is a matter of his lacking compassion as he apparently thinks that sex wit children is harmless, also an outrageous belief.

David, welcome back. Good to see you here.

I want to point out that this may not be a matter of Enigma suffering some deep hurt. It seems to me that he is a predator. Predatory people lack compassion: probably because they are sociopathic and lack human feelings.

Sorry if you find my comments offensive, Enigma, but I must call them as I see them.

Allan

[Guest SomethingOrOther]

Hm. I'm a pedant.

I'd like to point out that I find that "may" in Allans post really important and I'm just making sure everyone notices that it is there.

Just because, not being a sociopath, I'd probably not like being outcast, gagged and told that I'm not even a proper human being very much.

So, have we all seen the "may"?

Very well.

[Symora]

SomethingorOther, there is a reason why Enigma was banned from the forum and why you are still here. Enigma did not show any feelings or compassion for anyone here, quite the contrary. That is why he was treated like he was... he basically got what he gave out. Nobody said he was not a proper human being, we all know he is, but that does not give him the right to say anything and everything without regard for others, especially in this type of forum...

[LaLa]

I feel very doubtful about posting here in this situation. I agree with all the moderators trying to keep this site a safe place and to explain eNIGMA how his posts can be harmful to some/many members. But I feel also a bit bad after having read the last Allan's post. Well, I understand that his intention wasn't to hurt eNIGMA, but to explain us potential reasons of his "strange" behavior. And, SomethingOrOther, thanks for your clever comment !

I'm writing, because I'd like to metion one experience from the 1st eNIGMA's thread here. I was the 1st one to welcome him in this community. And I mentioned that I've read a very insightful article about pedophilia that "had broken" my prejudices and I had understood that being a pedophile is not "bad", only acting like a pedophile is bad - "interacting" with a child in any way that is potentialy harmful. And as he had read it, he wrote that while reading it, he started to weep, as I was the 1st one who didn't want to castrate him or something of this kind. So... he doesn't seem to me, subjectively, to be a sociopat without feelings. Yes, you may say he pretended and I'm naive to believe him. OK. I know. I just want to say I'd like to give him a chance here. Only if he is prone to a compromise...

eNIGMA, you have a chance to recieve support and understanding here. Just try to understand how to recieve it - what you "have to" do to recieve what you need. What are your real needs? This is an important question. Please, don't tell me just that you need to convince everybody here about your opinion. Please, try to analyse yourself deeper and find something more important. Maybe the first step/need could be: Find a way to communicate which is good for you and doesn't harm others.

P.S.: Symora posted while I was writing. I'm sorry I missed the fact that eNIGMA had already been banned!

[Guest SomethingOrOther]

SomethingorOther, there is a reason why Enigma was banned from the forum and why you are still here. Enigma did not show any feelings or compassion for anyone here, quite the contrary. That is why he was treated like he was... he basically got what he gave out. Nobody said he was not a proper human being, we all know he is, but that does not give him the right to say anything and everything without regard for others, especially in this type of forum...

Yes.. no, I'm not criticising the bann. I'm merely trying to point out that being called a sociopath who lacks human feelings isn't exactly going to make him feel better, if he isn't a sociopath who lacks human feelings. If he isn't a sociopath who lacks human feelings, I'd expect that he already does not feel all too well now and I would not bet that in that case he's in a position to notice so subtle a thing as a very small "may" somewhere in a sentence.

At least, that's what I wouldn't notice. And before he goes killing himself, I thought I might just point it out.

If on the other hand, he is a sociopath who lacks human feelings, I don't see how pointing out that there is a "may" makes the faintest difference to anything, tbh.

[Luna-]

As the mod who banned him, I'd like to explain what happened for those who may not have followed it all.

eNIGMA was hurting when he joined us. He was accepted and received support. He had many offers for him to talk about his struggles, how he felt, what support he needed, both publically and in private. All was well for a time. Then things began to change. He set himself onto the path of promoting his views and debating the rights and wrongs of various arguments around his chosen topic. He was allowed to do this for a time, until his tone became more confrontational and evangelical.

Repeated requests were made to him to alter his tone, to return to the supportive ethos of the forum, all of which he ignored. He was offered more chances to talk about how he felt, about what was behind all his speeches. When his tone and arguments intensified, he was given numerous warnings, along with the assurances that it was not HE that was being objected to, it was his argumentativeness and the way he was being insensitive to the feelings of other members. He responded with more arguments.

The final unfolding is in this thread, in his last post and in my response to him. After I gave him this final warning he came right back with another speech (which I deleted). Since he was banned this morning he has re-registered 3 times and sent many PMs in the same vein to several members including two to me and several to more vulnerable members of our community. He is still arguing to prove his point.

The fact that he has tried three times to get back in, not for support or any humanity or to help anyone, or for anything to do with what we are all here for, but only to send more argumentative PMs to those he thinks should hear them, indicates that he is now even more firmly determined in his mission to convert 'clowns' (that's us) to his points.

Once he began abusing the forum to proselytise and promote his own cause and became more vociferous, he began to hurt more and more people. Finally the good of the many won out over the good of one.

Many tried, over and over. He chose to ignore all the opportunities. That is a pity but it was his choice.

[Catmom]

Hi Luna-

I very much enjoyed being enlightened as to the eNIGMA banning. As you probably know, I am not at this site as much as many of the members and moderators so I am not as well informed about some of the issues here as I might like.

Luna, you are very articulate and delightfully literate (meaning you please my internal grammar-checker very much )

However, the quote below your post was kind of a shot-to-the-gut for me. Why do you say: "Since I gave up hope, I feel much better?" This seems so counter to what you seem to believe about the potential for positive change, or have I missed something because I am not here enough to "read between the lines" as it were?

Thanks,

Catmom

[JaneE]

Deletions signal to me that someone simply was ashamed of what they'd posted, for one reason or another. I've belonged to some quite vicious fora where people'd go and delete what they'd said after being attacked or demeaned... but these fora weren't dedicated to the mentally and emotionally fragile, so I think people who delete things here (where 99.9% of users are respectful and gentle) felt they'd exposed themselves in some way. I don't take it personally, but I do feel sad for the poster, and I do wish they'd left up their comments so it could help those who may have similar difficulties. Sometimes I think it may be a reaction to a "slow" response... but it takes time to find people who may have had the same experience and can post something supportive and helpful. I know I often read posts I *wish* I could respond to... but I simply don't have the experience or feel I have adequate advice. But I do understand, ultimately... withdrawing in the face of feeling exposed.

*edit* I am not familiar at all with the "enigma" banning or whatnot... I'm just talking about self-deletions I've seen around. Sorry if I've missed the point!!

Jane

[Luna-]

Jane

You haven't missed the point at all. I used to delete when feeling over-exposed and as you said, when responses were slow. I would sit and imagine people weren't responding because they were judging me. I know this not to be the case now.

On further thought, I also delete if I feel I can't "stand by my words" in whatever way. I want what I've said to feel congruent and something I can say without regretting it afterwards. So can it stand up to the "I stand by what I said" test? If not, I now try not to say it in the first place.

Catmom: I replied to your post in a PM. )

[Guest ASchwartz]

Hi JaneE,

You and Luna are both correct. People delete for many reasons, One, is out of fear that they will be attacked. It matters not whether they will or willl not be attacked. It is a fear they live with.

In addition and as Luna points out, there are those who delete because they hate anything they write.

Lets keep this important discussion going.

Allan:)

[Luna-]

Now you've really got me thinking, Allan!

I also delete when I ask myself the question, "how could this be interpreted?" and I then decide that it could be taken the wrong way. If I can't reword it, then I rather just delete it. Some things just won't land well and if there is a risk of that and someone getting hurt, I rather just delete it.

[IrmaJean]

In the past, I always deleted for the same reason...feeling exposed and unheard or embarrassed for freely being myself. I haven't deleted since we have had this discussion, though.

[Aaron.X.C]

Hmm, I pretty sure I haven't deleted yet.

[Guest ASchwartz]

Hi Aaron and Everyone,

Thanks for your reply. You say that you have not deleted yet. Sounds like its an option for you. What might cause you to delete and what are your ideas about why people delete?

Can any of you point to issues within our community that might be causing some folks to delete??

Allan:)