Frozen

[Guest deadman]

end of participation

[malign]

I know, DM, but I can live with you being crabby and uncomfortable, just as you seem to tolerate my own considerable idiosyncracies. I did think that holding your breath, though it might not affect us at this range, might at least turn you some interesting colors? ;-)

In any ongoing chaotic process, there are occasional peaks and lulls. With as many people as participate here, though, those variances are likely to be the mass effect of quite a lot of different causes, coincident in time. It's unlikely to be directly related to whether or not you personally have, or have not, been tormented enough. ;-)

{What I'm trying to say, in an ironical voice matching your own, is that it's all too common for people to assume themselves to be the cause of everything that happens to them. This is the source of a huge amount of suffering, over and above the direct results of what happens, because we spend a lot of effort searching in vain for something we did.}

[Athena]

{What I'm trying to say, in an ironical voice matching your own, is that it's all too common for people to assume themselves to be the cause of everything that happens to them. This is the source of a huge amount of suffering, over and above the direct results of what happens, because we spend a lot of effort searching in vain for something we did.}

I tend to believe it is a bit of both - we are the cause of some of our suffering, others are a cause as well. However trying to change the others who hurt us is a MASSIVE cause of suffering, so at least if I believe I am the cause, there is hope for an improvement in my situation with hopefully less suffering (well, at least for me, I can't speak for my therapist who I recently dreampt ended up in Rehab for Therapists because of me:eek:)

[IrmaJean]

DM, I still do the same thing...always worrying that I've done something wrong. Once in the past I was worried when a few days went by and you hadn't shown up on here that I must have said the wrong things. Darned old demons... It's not often about us, but rather about what has been going on in the other person's life. (will tuck that away and try to remember it next time I start blaming myself for someone's absence )

[Guest deadman]

end of participation

[IrmaJean]

I tend to assign blame to myself because of my low self-esteem and because so many people tell me through words and actions that it is my fault for anything that goes wrong.

I do this fairly frequently too, DM, and no one has ever said as much to me. There could be a lot of reasons why we do this, self-esteem being only one possibility. It might also have to do with having an introspective, introverted type of personality that thinks in terms of the self. In truth, we can't ever know the true motivations of others without asking. Maybe sometimes we could help ourselves to get outside of the box by allowing other possibilities. It doesn't always fall back on us.

It also means that if I assume all the responsibility I assume all the blame that goes with it. That way I end up overloading myself and I feel even worse and less valuable or human or happy.

Hmm...some of this sounds familiar as well. Maybe we could try to be a little more gentle with ourselves. Take some of the pressure off? I think we give ourselves too much power in this.

Let's see if you guys can make sense of any of that without wanting to swallow a bottle of scotch with a thorazine chaser! Sometimes I wonder if I am not a candidate for a padded sleeper suite on the Disoriented Express.:mad:

DM, self-awareness is a gift you give yourself that can aid in the process of healing. You might try to explore and understand what you discover, without judgment. It's a piece of your puzzle. When you reserve judgment and choose to learn from it instead, then there is truly something to gain.

[Guest deadman]

end of participation

[IrmaJean]

The connotation is a bit different. The point being...yes..do recognize and be aware of the things about yourself you'd like to change. But...don't beat yourself up for being human. Instead use that energy in a positive and proactive way to make positive change. It's information and this is is something to use to your benefit.

[Guest deadman]

end of participation

[malign]

DM,

It's possible that your past has put you on high alert, so that you focus constantly on the judgments that a person makes. We undoubtedly make them. But I would question whether judgment underlies every single interaction.

For instance, I have a friend who is an addict. That poses no threat to me, so I don't feel that I spend a lot of time judging them. I certainly conclude that being addicted is harming them (which is a kind of judgment), but that doesn't make me see them as a "bad" person. {"Being judgmental" usually means assigning a value judgment to the person as a whole, as a response to certain of their actions.}

Similarly, being cautious in a bad neighborhood is different from assuming that every person you meet there is "bad". You're going to be wrong most of the time, still; your judgment about the neighborhood just changes the probability that, in bulk, the people there might be dangerous. Even then, it only changes a tiny probability into a somewhat larger, but still small, probability. After all, even in bad neighborhoods, in any given time period the vast majority manage to get through their day unharmed. It's your alertness, and the inordinate value that a person's own safety has for them, that makes the danger seem so much larger.

All I think IrmaJean was saying was, when you're doing self-examination (where there's little or no danger of any kind), it may not be necessary to assign a value to each thing you learn about yourself, immediately. Perhaps it's worth something, simply as information.

[IrmaJean]

DM, you're twisting....remember I'm in your corner. By judgment I simply meant don't beat yourself up. I'll use myself as an example. I can say with clear honesty with myself that I am not always great at being assertive. Do I wish I could be more assertive? Yes. Do I admire that I have a tendency to be a bit "wimpy" sometimes? Not particularly. (This is a minor judgment, though not harsh) Am I working on this? I am trying. I also try to view this as information to learn from and not something to hurt myself with. It means paying attention to all of the information, but not berating myself for it. Does that make more sense?

[Guest deadman]

end of participation

[Athena]

DM, I don't perceive that you have any difficulty communicating here anymore. In the early days you did not appear ready to hear what others here were saying to you. I've seen that a lot with depressed people including myself "A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest". And when one is in that mode, pretty much everything they say has an "edge" to it.

On the topic of PC-ness: We have a columnist up here who is so un-PC. She is a delight to read. She had a heyday with the fact that the original version of "Money for nothing" was banned from being played up here in Canada for its political incorrectness. Every comment that was posted to her article was pretty much agreeing with her that the ban and the amount of effort and attention going into the decision was simply beyond ridiculous. Having said that, I think even she would be a little more careful about her remarks in certain circles. But if you do unintentionally offend somebody, I agree they should simply make you aware of that fact and then there is an opportunity to mend hurt feelings as either the offended party has simply misunderstood you, or you were unaware of how hurtful your comments were to certain people/groups. (I'm still waiting to be berated by somebody here for my lawyer jokes but then again, if they are truly ethical lawyers, they will know that the jokes do not apply to them). I do think that being honest and open with others is so much better than walking on eggshells to the point of not being able to make any true "connections" with others. I believe it is the human "connections" that give us life.

[randomperson]

I posted your last two lines on my FB wall. Great saying.

[Guest deadman]

end of participation

[IrmaJean]

DM, I am always willing to offer hugs, but only if they don't impose on any boundaries. If you feel safe and okay with one, I can offer a cyber hug. ((((DM))))

[Guest deadman]

end of participation

[IrmaJean]

Sometimes my best intentions fall short. I'm sorry if I wrote anything upsetting. I want you to be comfortable and feel safe here.

"Unfit" and "unwanted" is your perception of yourself at the moment, though. I'm sorry that you are feeling this way.

What can I do to help?

[Guest deadman]

end of participation

[IrmaJean]

Look into it further and maybe you can come to understand why. You don't feel deserving? Does it frighten you? Just some things to consider if you feel comfortable with thinking more about it. I'm sorry you feel sad.

[Guest deadman]

Frozen again.

[IrmaJean]

Would talking more about it bring you any relief? We're here to listen.

[randomperson]

Maybe for once I can help a bit. I share the feeling of isolation, that because I am so 'different' that I can never be loved. it creates a cycle that is self destructive and hard to break. I am finding some of this is just in my mind. Not all.. I wish that was the case lol. But enough to allow me to keep taking those positive baby steps.

In fact this forum was one of the corner stones to seeing this. Notice we still care, still with you. No one has left and we want to hear back. Not just guys like us.. Women too!

We will all slide a little back from time to time in our journey together. It is normal, just since I popped in I have seen growth with you. Be proud of yourself! Praise your growth and enjoy the feeling of success and that others care.

For the ladies in this forum you don't know how much your posts mean.. because many of the guys in here suffer from low self esteem and are used to women not wanting anything to do with us because of it. Just a simple hello after we share who we are helps to counter the years of negative thoughts.

[Guest deadman]

end of participation

[randomperson]

We are basically on the same quest. These fears many of us share them.

I know what you talk about being a leper. It is like most never get past high school mentality.

At the same time we create part of the problems by walling ourselves up. Often our reality is partially distorted and creates the perfect storm that we live in.

For me I want to test the new theories I have learned and to see if I can just talk to women to rebuild my self esteem, it is that initial 'getting to know you' phase I struggle the most with.

Just keep walking with me we will get there over time