Transference/Countertransference

[Luna-]

There'll be lousy times like this, even still. I'm sorry to hear today is one.

Yes I do know Cybershrink and he knows me by my username there. I pop in there rarely now. He has been helpful to me in the past but he is scathing about any therapy that isn't Cognitive-Behavioural. I even tried to challenge him a bit on this (when I was hanging out there) as I have had much help from psychodynamic, but he came right back with the same thing: CBT was the only form of therapy that had been proven effective; anything else was a waste of time and money and I assume by association, the practitioners would be suspect. Slight bias there!

Does it help, on days like this, to focus on the present and what is intact in you, still? Even when you doubt it is there?

[Chisholm]

Thank you IJ and Luna (ditto on the Cybershrink experience - he seems to have a few massive chips on his shoulders - certainly makes you wonder about these guys in the profession. Just as well I had enough savvy to temper his extreme opinions - he was aware that I had a history of CSA yet he thought it wise to call my therapist a predator and the-rapist??? On the other hand, I do feel that the profession needs some outspoken stalwarts to guard the ethical sanctity - all adds to healthy debate).

I phoned my psychiatrist (not my psychologist/therapist) - had a complete meltdown. There is something so traumatic about being exposed to the concept of delusion - of total loss of self belief - of loss of psychic reality - when all along there was apparently nothing wrong with my sense of reality. I don't know if you guys have ever watched "the Changeling" - where they tried to persuade the woman that the boy was actually her son and it was not? Frightening!! That's what I felt like. So I for the last 6 months I have been holding desperately on to a sense of reality but sometimes that ground between fantasy and reality becomes desperately narrow and at times I feel that I would rather die than go through that feeling again.

The reason that I phoned my psychiatrist as apposed to my psychologist is that I literally wanted a "scientific opinion" - I asked her if I could trust my therapist when she goes on "about my ex-therapist having fallen in love with me". She laughed and said that she may have a more "medical" background but that she was human and as far as she was concerned, she also felt that he had fallen in love with me. She felt that he was too intense and deep thinking to simply succumb to "sexual feelings" - that it would have had to have been far more than that for him. And again she pointed out - the evidence is obvious! I guess I wanted her to talk countertransference and transference but she feels that the feelings are the same, no matter which way you choose to define it.

I guess my question is, why can't I trust it - why can't I just "wear the clothes that I see"?

[IrmaJean]

What's before you here...what's important is not whether he truly loved you or not, but rather why and how your interpretation of this is meaningful to you.

why can't I trust it - why can't I just "wear the clothes that I see"?

Why might happen if you did trust it? What would happen if you did wear the clothes you see? What painful emotion are you trying to avoid in this? Have you felt this way before in your life? I believe you've mentioned that this theme has played out in other aspects in your life. Have you discussed any of this with your current therapist? If it feels significant to you, then it probably is. It could be something to explore in therapy, but try making it about how it relates to you in your life.

How are other aspects of your life? Are you able to move away from this long enough to freely enjoy moments with family and friends? I hope that you have support at home. Sorry for all of the questions. If it brings anything up, I hope you will discuss this with your therapist. Wishing you well tonight.

[Chisholm]

Hi IJ

Do you mean abandonment?

X Chisholm

[Chisholm]

Apparently the tabloids have got wind of this and are asking questions. I don't think I can take much more trauma. I just don't know what to believe anymore.

[IrmaJean]

I'm sorry, Chisholm, if I am not remembering everything here with this, but tabloids? :confused: Does your therapist have some kind of celebrity status? How have you been feeling recently?

[Chisholm]

I don't know what you would call these small time newspapers - guess tabloids is about celebritries - celebrity he is most definitely not.

My father phoned SASOP to enquire as to whether he was still in therapy. They initially refused to speak to him as they felt he might be some sort of journalist - apparently there have been a number of enquiries from a small group of journalists.

I know a friend of a friend who enquired and confirmed that they had got wind of this. The last time something like this happened in SA (a bit more extreme as physical boundaries were crossed), the news was broken by a newspaper called Noseweek - I don't know what you call these type of newspapers but if these are the issues that interest them they are no bettter than tabloids. I don't know where they got their info from and I just hope they don't have any names. This would be the last straw for me.

[Luna-]

What's happening, Chisholm?

[Chisholm]

How have you been feeling recently?

Bit more relaxed as I have not received any calls from the "tabloids" so hoping they do not have any names. Don't know how they got SASOP's details but SASOP would not have given them anything!

My father's phonecall to SASOP brought back all the trauma and I found myself doubting what happened all over again. I came so close to believing I was delusional when he denied everything so any hint of fantasy (such as my current therapist insisting he fell in love with me) has me running for the hills. I only want to deal in reality, I want to discuss things in therapy ito transference and countertransference as apposed to "his falling in love".

I accused both my psychiatrist and psychologist of simply being expedient or "telling me what I want to hear" because it's probably the kindest thing to do given the circumstances. Both insist that the facts (all the emails, SASOP's verdict, his being suspended) speak for themselves and that they would never disrespect me by "encouraging fantasy".

I don't know why I won't believe it - is it because I am petrified of trusting again and coming face to face with delusion (again). Is it because the enormity of his abandonment would then have to be faced. I know why I prefer transference/countertransference as apposed to "his falling in love" - because I hide behind intellectualisations but I don't know what I am hiding from. I know I want to believe that he "fell in love with me" (as wrong as that may have been ethically) so why don't I believe or trust it?

Sorry re all the questions - it is quite scary how vulnerable one is in therapy and then to have that trust so abused in the very situation where you have laid your soul bare - where you have made yourself more vulnerable than you have ever been in your life.

[IrmaJean]

Again, I would try to separate him from the equation here and make this about you. This isn't about whether or not he truly fell in love with you, I don't think. It's about why this interpretation is important to you and what the resulting feelings mean about you.

I want to believe that he "fell in love with me"

This seems significant in my view. Try taking the symbolism of that and applying it to yourself. What does it mean to you to be loved? What feelings does it bring up in you and why do you need/desire those feelings?

why don't I believe or trust it?

If you did believe it and trust it, what might happen? Is there some fear in that acceptance?

Hopefully I haven't repeated any questions here. Have you been discussing these concerns with your therapist?

[Chisholm]

Yip I have been discussing this with my therapist ad nauseam. She insists I speak in "feelings" as apposed to intellectualisations (as this is my no. 1 defence mechanism and my ex-therapist and I somehow lost ourselves in those intellectualisations - in amongst all the so called intellectual foreplay!).

My personality tends towards "feelings" first and then frantically tries to control them by intellectualising them.

So if I have to look at the fears that you mention, I guess there are many.

Trusting that he loved me means coming to terms with the enormity and betrayal of his abandonment, it means letting go. What does letting go mean - does it mean letting go of him or letting go of self blame? Are those 2 separate things or does he symbolise that self blame?

The way I see it, I sit with 2 alternatives, hanging onto self blame and believing him(John) when he denied everything or letting go of that blame and trusting and believing myself (and all the others and the objective evidence - the list is endless!). But what does letting go of that blame mean ito fear?

AAAAARGH - there I go again - over analysing and getting nowhere!!!!

[IrmaJean]

My personality tends towards "feelings" first and then frantically tries to control them by intellectualising them.

Have you ever come to understand why you do this?

What does letting go mean - does it mean letting go of him or letting go of self blame? Are those 2 separate things or does he symbolise that self blame?

Maybe letting go of the self-blame would free you to letting go of him as well. If he is symbolizing self-blame, you might think about when/if you've felt this way before.

The way I see it, I sit with 2 alternatives, hanging onto self blame and believing him(John) when he denied everything or letting go of that blame and trusting and believing myself (and all the others and the objective evidence - the list is endless!). But what does letting go of that blame mean ito fear?

With those two choices, the answer seems quite clear to me. The answer is in accepting the truth. He was at fault in this. He made mistakes while you were under his care. You were vulnerable and he was responsible for protecting you. He didn't protect you. You are not to blame.

Keep talking with your therapist. It's a challenging road for you, I understand, but I sense your resolve to find your way through this. Wishing you wellness and healing, Chisholm.

[Guest ASchwartz]

Hi Chisholm,

Please try to remember and, thereby, reassure yourself, that old ways of thinking die hard. Its one thing to know you need to give up intellectualizing but its another thing to stop doing it. That is true for all of us so try not to beat up on yourself when you repeat intellectualizng.

Allan:)

[Chisholm]

Thank you Allan - I felt pure relief when I read that and funnily enough my therapist reiterated exactly that sentiment in session today!

She said as much as I might be frustrated at the habit, it had in fact served me well in the past as a means of basic self protection. I guess that's why they call them defence mechanisms - as much as they have their pathology at times, the flip side is that they also have their usefulness in basic survival defence.

I had a mind-boggling session and understood for the first time where so much of this is coming from. Too much to go into now - quite exhausted and sleep beckons but to use a good old intellectualisation: it has to do with Disintegration Anxiety (ala Kohut) - made so much sense and certainly described the feeling.

Good night all and thank you for the wonderful support. So many special people out there. Kinda warms the cockles....

X

[Chisholm]

All my questions - why I can see the clothes but I won't wear them - why I wont trust what others are telling me is so obvious or indeed trust what I saw and felt.

I have posted this excerpt (from a letter that I wrote to my ex-therapist after he was suspended) before:

You will never know what it is to believe you are delusional, what it is to have your mind attack your every intuition until finally you just start pleading for blackness, for sleep – anything to shut out the noise. When you denied everything (in a nutshell you were telling me that everything I felt was not real, everything I saw was not real, everything I trusted was not real….), I remember the roaring in my ears, the pain in my chest – everything froze and then I felt like I was floating. When I drove off I remember looking down at my arms on the steering wheel – they were not my own – I don’t know what happened after that, I literally lost time. No matter the truth, the fact that you could let me walk away in that state…

Then going over and over my journals, playing devil’s advocate, questioning every nuance, every word – believing I was completely and utterly deluded, wondering who I actually was, why I thought I saw the things I saw"

Apparently the experience that I describe above is sometimes referred to as disintegration anxiety or fragmentation by Kohut et al.

- “an unnameable dread associated with the threatened dissolution of a coherent self."

- “the attempt to describe disintegration anxiety is the attempt to describe

the indescribable”

- “the expression of the ill-defined yet intense and pervasive anxiety that

accompanies a patient's dawning awareness that his self is disintegrating”

I won't trust because I never ever want to go through that trauma again.

[IrmaJean]

I went to read about disintegration anxiety and Kohut, Chisholm, after you'd written about it. It sounds very painful and distressing. I hope you are feeling some relief after coming to this realization. Take care.

[Chisholm]

This may seem pathetic to have to ask but I guess it is just another indication of what I have been through.

Do I come across as sane and clear thinking?

Given all the objective evidence (for those who have read what went on btw my therapist and I), do you think my judgement is clear - that I saw things correctly?

X C

[IrmaJean]

You come across very sane and very intelligent.

Given all the objective evidence (for those who have read what went on btw my therapist and I), do you think my judgement is clear - that I saw things correctly?

I think you already know the answer to that question. Now the trick is to trust yourself and believe it.

[Chisholm]

Thank you IJ - you are a breath of fresh air. Don't know if you've followed any of the Rapha posts but I think I have just been put off/cured of intellectualising for good. Yikes!!!!

XX

[spiritual_emergency]

Apparently the experience that I describe above is sometimes referred to as disintegration anxiety or fragmentation by Kohut et al.

- “an unnameable dread associated with the threatened dissolution of a coherent self."

- “the attempt to describe disintegration anxiety is the attempt to describe

the indescribable”

- “the expression of the ill-defined yet intense and pervasive anxiety that

accompanies a patient's dawning awareness that his self is disintegrating”

I won't trust because I never ever want to go through that trauma again.

That's interesting Chisolm because what you describe above is what I describe here: Fragmentation and Annhilation (I also touched on it here: Annhiliation Anxiety)

Meantime, obviously your relationship with your past therapist was very distressing to you and there may be some places you shouldn't go until you have found some healing with your new therapist. You might choose to never go to such places and that's fine -- it should be your choice. It's quite understandable that an individual would not wish to repeat a traumatic experience. I sincerely hope the relationship with your new therapist will be more productive, healing, and thus, truly therapeutic for you.

~ Namaste

[Chisholm]

(Sorry should have posted this here and not in Rapha's space):

Hi SE .

Don’t get me wrong, I am very appreciative of your input and indeed I was more than tempted to get involved with what could be a very interesting discussion – enthralling actually. But in deference to my new motto: Keep it Real, I have to look at my feelings and what they mean for me. I completely understand that the the animus/anima is meaningful for you.

In essence whether you label it transference/countertransference/projection/projective identification/animus possession – they are all theories or if one wanted to take it even further, social constructs which are informative at best but I don’t want to get into relativistic ontology. No doubt it wil resonate with some and not for others.

The quote within your quote from Perry actually puts it quite neatly:

The analogies here to the relation of loving feeling between two persons cannot escape the eye. It is very difficult for the profession of psychotherapy to know what to do with this awkward circumstance. The way to ease the tension around the issue has been from the beginning, to take refuge in the fact of the "transference," which, holding vestiges of previous, parental relationships, minimizes the validity of the presently growing relationship that exists in its own right. The ardor that springs up has been made even more safe by perceiving it as the "transference neurosis," needing a lot of interpretation to keep it under control and finally, to dispel it. A term that has been used for this effort is the graphic phrase, "crushing the transference," thereby telling the whole story in epitome.”

However if he’s going to start talking “archetypes and archetypal phenomena as affect-images” – well that pretty much crushes the loving feeling for me as well.

My experience of fragmentation/disintegration was just that – a once off frightening experience. Actually I think Kohut does describe it best when he says “the attempt to describe disintegration anxiety is the attempt to describe the indescribable”, my point being that there is no benefit in further expounding what was an experience far more indicative of the situation that I found myself in rather than any pathology/habitual pattern of relating. In short once my therapist’s STUFF entered the room, the space was no longer contained and safe and my behaviour was far more a reaction to dysfunctional circumstances than reflective of any behavioural pattern repeating itself.

Over-analyzing/intellectualizing/theorizing – I posted this not so long ago:

Quote:

“I got sucked into that intoxicating and powerful heady space in therapy – a wonderful world of intellectualisation which (in amongst all the emails. etc) made for a seductive interplay (or as my current therapist calls it, intellectual foreplay) between my therapist and I. Instead of insisting that I speak directly to my feelings, he joined me in my NO.1 defence mechanism (which no doubt was also his NO.1 defence mechanism) and together we both played word games, ruminated on Jungian archetypes, sparred with analogies and flirted with Freudian parapraxis. Wonderful seductive little world of metaphor and symbolism while neither of us spoke about the HUGE pink elephant sitting in the room. To be sure there was plenty of feeling in the room but neither of us were willing to address it - UNTIL REALITY SET IN WITH A HORRIBLE THUMP! ...and then the power differential inherent in therapy caught up with me with a vengeance.”

As a friend of mine so aptly put it - intellectualization and metaphor is enthralling and stimulating in literature (and in this forum), but out of place and downright dangerous in therapy.

[spiritual_emergency]

Chisolm: However if he’s going to start talking “archetypes and archetypal phenomena as affect-images” – well that pretty much crushes the loving feeling for me as well.

I probably should have clarified that John Weir Perry was a psychiatrist who worked with individuals deemed to be schizophrenic for over 40 years. In that passage, he was presumably referring to relating to an individual in the midst of a psychotic episode who is personally experiencing archetypal imagery and symbolism brought to life.

Whatever it was he was doing with people, it seems to have been very successful. His Diabasis project produced a recovery rate of 85% without medication. Nonetheless, that degree of intimacy may not be appropriate for clients who are not in a fragmented state.

[Chisholm]

This fear of disintegration - petrified of being in or going through that state again. If I had to be extremely flippant - I wonder whether I haven't developed a phobia to trusting myself. Perhaps not trusting myself is just a safer place to be?

Negative comment I know but that's kinda where I am at the moment.

[malign]

I know it's going to seem like a lot to ask ... but maybe you can find a way to trust yourself, without having to go into crisis if you by chance happen to be mistaken about others? I mean, we all make mistakes. Is it necessary to base your sanity on never making any?

You're allowed to care about somebody, without losing yourself if you find out that your trust was misplaced. I can't claim to be really great at it, myself, but I understand that it works best if you trust yourself, that is, believe in yourself, first. Because you won't let you down, but other people might. It's less of a loss, though, if you're still supporting yourself.

[Chisholm]

Oh I've made plenty of mistakes - luckily none of them affected my sanity.

You're allowed to care about somebody, without losing yourself if you find out that your trust was misplaced.

But in therapy when you peel back the layers and expose yourself as you have never done in your life - well I can't quite describe how vulnerable this makes you. He encouraged my dependence (literally and figuratively) and justified this in the name of psychotherapy/psychoanalysis. I restructured a very damaged sense of self around his love - yes this was what I felt (and according to all the psychs and objective evidence this is what he felt - rightly or wrongly). "Wrongly" apparently thus the quicksand I based my trust on.

This is something I wrote to him after he was suspended:

I cringe when I think of the things I shared with you – totally trusting, baring my soul. I have been naked before and been raped physically – in some ways I exposed myself again and you raped my mind. There is no anger in those words, only a desperate sadness knowing that you will harden yourself against what I am saying and react in anger.

I'm quite happy to be mistaken just not about this.