Transference/Countertransference

[Rapha]

I can't speak for Rapha, but I always think in symbolism with this. I realize now that what I felt then, from a physical standpoint, was a response to the intensity of my feelings and wasn't truly representative of them. The gift, in my case, was the love I was feeling. It was ultimately sweet, loving, giving and pure...the very best of me. Imagining myself capable of such a love, even in this limited space, still warms my heart. It's a very special place to me. And I truly hope my former therapist would not mind me discussing this here.

Chisholm, I would look to what it means to you to be loved in the way you felt loved within the relationship. Do you think that being "caught in the moment" went beyond your usual intellectual mode? Perhaps your ability to let go and be inside the moment is something that you can repeat now in a healthier environment with those who love you. What do you think?

I can relate, SE. I always felt Priti brought out the best in me. She inspired me to care not just about her but about others as well... life itself became tolerable again. (Naturally I became anxious as my time in therapy was drawing to a close. I wondered, "What if this all wears off after I stop seeing her?") I know I've been a better listener, more compassionate, more gentle, more patient, more trusting and more hopeful as a result of knowing her. And more creative and expressive, too. Does any of this have anything to do with her bringing out my anima?

--- Rapha

[spiritual_emergency]

Hello Rapha,

I think you may have mixed me up with Irma Jean. As a result, I can't speak to what she was saying but I can speak to this:

I know I've been a better listener, more compassionate, more gentle, more patient, more trusting and more hopeful as a result of knowing her. And more creative and expressive, too. Does any of this have anything to do with her bringing out my anima?

I suspect it does. What we'd want to see in a positive or productive Anima/Animus integration is a balancing effect in the overall personality, even consciousness itself. Characteristics that were the opposite of your previous outer appearance (Persona/Ego) and were previously hidden in the Shadow begin to come forth. In your case, you find yourself to be a more gentle, compassionate and loving person. These are characteristics that we more commonly associate with the feminine rather than the masculine.

~ Namaste

[Rapha]

Hello Rapha,

I think you may have mixed me up with Irma Jean. As a result, I can't speak to what she was saying but I can speak to this:

I know I've been a better listener, more compassionate, more gentle, more patient, more trusting and more hopeful as a result of knowing her. And more creative and expressive, too. Does any of this have anything to do with her bringing out my anima?

I suspect it does. What we'd want to see in a positive or productive Anima/Animus integration is a balancing effect in the overall personality, even consciousness itself. Characteristics that were the opposite of your previous outer appearance (Persona/Ego) and were previously hidden in the Shadow begin to come forth. In your case, you find yourself to be a more gentle, compassionate and loving person. These are characteristics that we more commonly associate with the feminine rather than the masculine.

~ Namaste

You're right, my mistake! (Sorry IJ!)

I was thinking the same thing about those characteristics being more commonly associated with the feminine. I do feel more balanced now than before knowing her.

On the lighter side, must you "Namaste" every post? It makes me miss Priti! (I am teasing... please keep "Namaste"-ing. It actually brings back good memories!)

Namaste,

--- Rapha

[Guest ASchwartz]

Hi Rapha et. al.,

Rapha, you are correct when you say that the therapist must act in the best interests of his patient and I know I am paraphrasing you, if that's OK.

In my view as a therapist, now retired, and based both on my training, experience and reading, the relationship between patient and therapist must be authentic. There is a real relationship between the two but it is the job of the therapist to use his or her own feelings and reactions to the patient in ways that are helpful to that patient. In other words, the therapist does not hide behind a mask of neutrality or falseness.

Patients have reactions to their therapist. Those reactions might be loving, sexual, angry disapproving, curious, etc. The therapist is also a human being and must react humanly but in the best interests of the patient. He or she may "love" their patient and even feel sexually attracted. A therapist never acts out those feelings but uses them. The relationship in therapy is a healthy one and is sometimes the first really healthy relationship a person has had. In any way, the patient learns how to function better in the world as a result of this healthy therapeutic relationship.

Is this clear???

Rapha, I am not sure why you left your therapist after such a short amount of time. Did your feeling towards her scare you off?? I don't know, but, just asking why the therapy stopped?

Allan

[Chisholm]

Hi Allan

Those reactions might be loving, sexual, angry disapproving, curious, etc. The therapist is also a human being and must react humanly but in the best interests of the patient. He or she may "love" their patient and even feel sexually attracted. A therapist never acts out those feelings but uses them. The relationship in therapy is a healthy one and is sometimes the first really healthy relationship a person has had.

So I guess what happened between my therapist and I wasn't healthy?

X Chisholm

PS Rapha I would be quite happy to listen to ramblings.....if you still have those thoughts on the subject.

[IrmaJean]

Your therapist's mishandling of his feelings didn't create a healthy therapeutic environment for you, no. But, there are ways for you to heal from this, take lessons out of it, and move forward. You have a healthy therapeutic relationship now and I hope this has been healing for you, Chisholm.

[Rapha]

Hi Rapha et. al.,

Rapha, you are correct when you say that the therapist must act in the best interests of his patient and I know I am paraphrasing you, if that's OK.

In my view as a therapist, now retired, and based both on my training, experience and reading, the relationship between patient and therapist must be authentic. There is a real relationship between the two but it is the job of the therapist to use his or her own feelings and reactions to the patient in ways that are helpful to that patient. In other words, the therapist does not hide behind a mask of neutrality or falseness.

Patients have reactions to their therapist. Those reactions might be loving, sexual, angry disapproving, curious, etc. The therapist is also a human being and must react humanly but in the best interests of the patient. He or she may "love" their patient and even feel sexually attracted. A therapist never acts out those feelings but uses them. The relationship in therapy is a healthy one and is sometimes the first really healthy relationship a person has had. In any way, the patient learns how to function better in the world as a result of this healthy therapeutic relationship.

Is this clear???

Rapha, I am not sure why you left your therapist after such a short amount of time. Did your feeling towards her scare you off?? I don't know, but, just asking why the therapy stopped?

Allan

Yes, very clear!

In my situation I was seeing a physical therapist. If you haven't read my novella about the situation you can find it in the new members area under Love Story? Transference?. My feelings did not scare me off. But I think I scared my PT and my OT when I sang a song for them at the end of my last PT appointment that I had written for my PT three months prior. Maybe someday if I'm really brave (or foolish) I'll post the lyrics and you can all laugh at my feeble attempts at poetry!

My therapy stopped because I had progressed to the point where PT was no longer necessary; i.e., I graduated.

[Chisholm]

This quote by Allan:

....the relationship between patient and therapist must be authentic. There is a real relationship between the two but it is the job of the therapist to use his or her own feelings and reactions to the patient in ways that are helpful to that patient. In other words, the therapist does not hide behind a mask of neutrality or falseness.

The therapist is also a human being and must react humanly but in the best interests of the patient. He or she may "love" their patient and even feel sexually attracted. A therapist never acts out those feelings but uses them.

Where does/should the therapist draw the line? At what stage would he decide that those loving/sexual feelings are no longer in the best interests of the patient?

My current psychiatrist felt that it was "hubris" on the part of my therapist to believe that he could control those feelings.

At what stage does the referral become necessary?

X Chisholm

[malign]

Chisholm,

It feels as if you're seeking to make enormous black and white decisions, particularly about yourself, in what is essentially a very wide gray area ...

After all, if all this were a precise science, your therapist probably wouldn't have made his mistake.

[IrmaJean]

Undoubtedly therapists have feelings, Chisholm. The problem wouldn't come from having feelings, I don't think, the problem would come when the therapist acts out on them. The therapist can "use" those feelings as a tool of sorts to learn more about the client and the relationship, but he/she must manage them in a way that doesn't hurt the client or interfere with the client's therapy. I would imagine a client should be referred when the therapist feels unable to manage his/her feelings and those feelings have invaded the space to become harmful for the client. The therapist must always have the best interests of the client in mind. Do no harm.

How have you been feeling?

[Rapha]

Undoubtedly therapists have feelings, Chisholm. The problem wouldn't come from having feelings, I don't think, the problem would come when the therapist acts out on them. The therapist can "use" those feelings as a tool of sorts to learn more about the client and the relationship, but he/she must manage them in a way that doesn't hurt the client or interfere with the client's therapy. I would imagine a client should be referred when the therapist feels unable to manage his/her feelings and those feelings have invaded the space to become harmful for the client. The therapist must always have the best interests of the client in mind. Do no harm.

How have you been feeling?

Hi Chisholm! I join IrmaJean in wondering how you've been feeling?

Perhaps this is silly, but reading IrmaJean's response above immediately triggered in me thoughts of how I had feelings for my PT and how there are some odd parallels between my experience and yours, Chisholm.

I struggled during my first two months of seeing my PT. I didn't want my feelings to spill out and create an environment where therapy would have to be discontinued. I sought and received valuable counsel from friends and grew in my ability to care for her as a person. (Remember, I would ask her about India, her interests, her life, etc. and get her doing the majority of the talking during our 45 minute appointments.) I did so well with this and felt so good about the growth I made over my four-and-a-half months in therapy. Then at my final appointment I guess one might say I "acted out" by singing the song I had written for her several months prior. I still have trouble seeing it this way (as "acting out"), because any idea that some kind of "real" relationship might ever develop had long since been dismissed in my mind. I had moved past the "crush" phase months ago to seeing her like a sister.

The "silly" point I wanted to get to is that IrmaJean's comments, with a few terms flipped, might have been written of my situation! With revisions...

"Undoubtedly patients have feelings. The problem wouldn't come from having feelings, I don't think, the problem would come when the patient acts out on them. The patient can "use" those feelings as a tool of sorts to learn more about the [physical] therapist... but he/she must manage them in a way that doesn't hurt the therapist... I would imagine a therapist should be discontinued when the patient feels unable to manage his/her feelings and those feelings have invaded the space to become harmful for the therapist. The patient must always have the best interests of the therapist in mind. Do no harm."

A little crazy, I know. But it's still good for me to go back and realize that my artistic expression was really more about me than it was about my therapist. In that way I harmed her to a certain degree, even though my intent was to love her by sharing something I hoped would be encouraging to her.

It sure seems like your therapist's "expression" [of affection] was really more about him than it was about his client [you]. In that way he harmed you to a certain degree, even though his intent was to love you by sharing something he hoped would be encouraging to you.

I hope you don't think of me now like you think of your therapist!

I can also see how, despite feeling angry and betrayed, you would still care about him.

A final thought. The code of ethics Allan talks about (a therapist never acts out those feelings but uses them) is in place not just for the client but for the therapist, too. There's no doubt John hurt not only you but himself and many others by bending the boundaries.

Peace,

Rapha

[Chisholm]

Care about him? Yip that's still in there somewhere along with the ache, lack of self belief, sense of abandoment, betrayal........ nothing black or white about my feelings - kinda GREY, mixed up and gloomy actually. And yes many others were hurt in the process......my husband and family, no doubt John's wife, my parents, my children.....the list is endless. Going through bit of a numb stage - good for studying which is where I should be focussed right now!

I was intellectually and emotionally drawn to her and loved spending time with her. Besides, if two people who are attracted to one another on an emotional level become emotionally intimate, physical feelings will usually follow at some point.

Yet you didn't? Curious. Please send me those ramblings......? Usually(and yes Jung would agree) when there is such a meeting of minds/souls/hearts, there is an instinct to merge?

But true love is not a "crush" or "falling in love". Those are strong feelings, whether they are purely intellectual/emotional in nature, sexual in nature or some combination. But they can come and they can go. True selfless love is not a feeling. It's a choice, an act of the will to put another's well-being above that of your own.

Are you talking about the difference between agape (therapist "love") and eros? I have been married for 16 years now and indeed it does sometimes feel like "an act of will"!! Would this apply to a marriage as well?

Anima/animus - "hello darkness my old friend".... On this theory (and as spiritual, metaphysical, philosophical as Jungian ontology is, at the end of the day in the psychoanalytic sense, it is just that - a theory) one might argue that John did indeed see his anima in me (to be sure we are/were both sensitive and emotionally intense) but I certainly don't think I saw my animus in him - I saw all the above attributes in him ie the feminine and this is what I was drawn to. Whether I saw myself/him/a mixture of both - well that's what comes of a 100% fit I guess.

I find the concept of projections/projecting that which we do not own more helpful (for me anyway - in the interests of "Keep it Real"). Problem was the projections should have been handed back and the transference resolved - but he owned my projections and ran off with them.

In this regard, I had a quiet chuckle in therapy the other day - IrmaJean (in lieu of your post on symbols) - we were talking about "countertransference hooks" (occasionally she does allow me to intellectualise!) - John it seems had many. I suddenly had this image of a hatstand running off into the mists (with my projections hanging on it) - couldn't stop giggling thereafter! But hell he owes me at least 50% of the fees I paid him!!!

X

[Chisholm]

A few more thoughts......I see the parallels and then I don't.

The psychotherapy "space" is a very unique one. The patient should feel free to speak of his feelings/act out if needs be (although not aggressively/harmfully) - after all in a strict psychoanalytic sense, a certain amount of regression is to be expected. This space is often referred to as a "holding environment" in Winnicotean parlance and it is for the therapist to be concerned about boundaries, not the patient. A psychologist once told me that the greatest gift that a therapist could give his client was a boundaried relationship. That "sense of foreboding" I felt- I think related to the fact that I never felt "safe" in the therapeutic space - not safe in the sense that he would "try anything" (although many of the psychs commented that it had got dangerously close) but safe in the sense that I felt free to speak about my feelings (or indeed focus on them for that matter). I could never do that for a number of reasons -too many to deal with here, but largely because I did not feel " psychologically safe". I also ended up taking responsibility for his feelings/becoming what HE needed so to speak (as is my particular "pathology" if you want to call it that) which should never have happened - so much so that when he pulled the rug, I had/still have trouble sifting my broken "bits" from his. MINDFUCKING!!! (...apparently we did that too....)

I use the Winnicotean reference deliberately because it brings in the parenting/patriarchial symbolism which is unavoidable in the psychotherapeutic space (thanks IJ!). Much like a parent he was required to "hold me" symbolically (almost became literal!) - he couldn't do this. But that patriarchial relationship has other implications both in a transferential sense as well as in the FACT that there is an inherent power differential (which was further exacerbated by all the mixed messages) in the relationship.

Enough of that. Guess what I am trying to say is that I don't feel that you should beat yourself up at all about what happened with Priti - I don't think those strict boundaries applied (to PT or patient) although indeed it is a recognised setting for transference feelings. Apparently many patients "fall in love" with their doctors (even their gynaes - ick!!) so it is a fairly common phenomenon and ALL medical professionals are aware of them (or meant to be). I doubt Priti was in any way traumatised by this (although I don't know all the facts)? If I were in her shoes, I might feel quite flattered (after the initial surprise) - especially given the fact that you seem to be so intelligent and "in touch with your sensitive side" (own it now, don't split it off and project it)- as long as you didn't become a "bunny boiler" thereafter!!

X

Studies, studies...back to my studies

[spiritual_emergency]

Chisolm: But hell he owes me at least 50% of the fees I paid him!!!

*chuckle*

I initially didn't get therapy because I didn't know what was happening. Fortunately, a "therapist" fell into my head who was probably far more skilled than anyone I could have found.

Then, I didn't get therapy because I was in such an isolated community.

Then, I didn't get therapy because I realized the first thing I'd have to do would be to pay someone else to read about that experience and that would probably cost me somewhere in the modest range of one to two thousand dollars that I didn't have.

But now, I don't get therapy because I figure they would learn as much from me as I might learn from them and if I'm paying them for their knowledge, it's only fair that they pay me for mine. Hence, my chuckle.

I haven't bothered looking for that kind of therapeutic arrangment because I suspect I couldn't possibly find it. I do find a great deal of informal therapy through my own explorations however and although it won't work for everyone, it has worked for me.

~ Namaste

[Rapha]

Care about him? Yip that's still in there somewhere along with the ache, lack of self belief, sense of abandonment, betrayal........ nothing black or white about my feelings - kinda GREY, mixed up and gloomy actually. And yes many others were hurt in the process......my husband and family, no doubt John's wife, my parents, my children.....the list is endless. Going through bit of a numb stage - good for studying which is where I should be focused right now!

Don't forget about all his other patients who lost him as a therapist I presume (at least for awhile).

Rapha: I was intellectually and emotionally drawn to her and loved spending time with her. Besides, if two people who are attracted to one another on an emotional level become emotionally intimate, physical feelings will usually follow at some point.

Yet you didn't? Curious. Please send me those ramblings......? Usually (and yes Jung would agree) when there is such a meeting of minds/souls/hearts, there is an instinct to merge?

Perhaps that would have come with time had my feelings been reciprocated. But there was never any two-way attraction (at least that I was ever aware of). Priti treated me in a completely professional, non-flirtatious way at all times. Well, both Priti and Traci did kid me often about me liking the other therapist better! I highly doubt either of them thought of what they were doing as flirting, though it did endear them to me quite a bit. So there was never any "meeting of the minds/souls/hearts" the way there was with you and John, nor any instinct to merge. Heaven help me if I ever met someone like Priti who was drawn similarly to me!

My feelings changed dramatically over time from that of an emotional "crush" or perhaps adoration to the healthier (though probably still "too-intimate-for-the-situation") state of loving her like a sister. What else could you do with someone you adore, trust, respect and owe so much of your recovery to? I had to go that direction with my feelings because I knew that to stay in the adolescent "crush" stage would not be healthy for anyone!

That said, there's no doubt that the feelings that come when you're so powerfully drawn to someone are incredible. They're a high! You're so "in the moment" that life's troubles seem a million miles away! I was never worried about me acting on my feelings because I knew my convictions. I knew I'd never pursue her. But for quite awhile, until they matured into something healthier, I didn't quite know what to do with those feelings!

I'll probably send you the ramblings, possibly by PM (private message) instead of in the forum (so be sure to check). I guess they would explain a lot, wouldn't they?

Quote:

Rapha: But true love is not a "crush" or "falling in love". Those are strong feelings, whether they are purely intellectual/emotional in nature, sexual in nature or some combination. But they can come and they can go. True selfless love is not a feeling. It's a choice, an act of the will to put another's well-being above that of your own.

Are you talking about the difference between agape (therapist "love") and eros? I have been married for 16 years now and indeed it does sometimes feel like "an act of will"!! Would this apply to a marriage as well?

Bingo, my friend! You're smart. I'm not familiar with the term "therapist love". I am familiar with the term agape as it refers to the unconditional love of God. I can see how the ideal therapist love would be agape love, though.

And yes, this would definitely apply to a marriage. When the fuel of eros love runs low (as it will at some point in most marriages) that's when agape love must show up or the marriage flame is in danger of being extinguished. This is why in your marriage it "does sometimes feel like an act of the will".

Anima/animus - "hello darkness my old friend".... On this theory (and as spiritual, metaphysical, philosophical as Jungian ontology is, at the end of the day in the psychoanalytic sense, it is just that - a theory) one might argue that John did indeed see his anima in me (to be sure we are/were both sensitive and emotionally intense) but I certainly don't think I saw my animus in him - I saw all the above attributes in him ie the feminine and this is what I was drawn to. Whether I saw myself/him/a mixture of both - well that's what comes of a 100% fit I guess.

You and some others on this forum are versed in concepts like the shadow that I still need to learn about.

In this regard, I had a quiet chuckle in therapy the other day - IrmaJean (in lieu of your post on symbols) - we were talking about "countertransference hooks" (occasionally she does allow me to intellectualise!) - John it seems had many. I suddenly had this image of a hatstand running off into the mists (with my projections hanging on it) - couldn't stop giggling thereafter! But hell he owes me at least 50% of the fees I paid him!!!

X

I like the picture in my mind of you giggling! We could all use a little more of that, couldn't we?

Peace,

--- Rapha

[Rapha]

A few more thoughts......I see the parallels and then I don't.

You're right on. There are similarities, but also vast differences.

Enough of that. Guess what I am trying to say is that I don't feel that you should beat yourself up at all about what happened with Priti - I don't think those strict boundaries applied (to PT or patient) although indeed it is a recognised setting for transference feelings. Apparently many patients "fall in love" with their doctors (even their gynaes - ick!!) so it is a fairly common phenomenon and ALL medical professionals are aware of them (or meant to be). I doubt Priti was in any way traumatised by this (although I don't know all the facts)? If I were in her shoes, I might feel quite flattered (after the initial surprise) - especially given the fact that you seem to be so intelligent and "in touch with your sensitive side" (own it now, don't split it off and project it)- as long as you didn't become a "bunny boiler" thereafter!!

X

Studies, studies...back to my studies

Thanks so much, sweet Chisholm. I'm not beating myself up about it. Besides, I kept boundaries in place throughout until the end of my final appointment. Even then, as I mentioned before, I still don't feel I was acting out since my view of her changed so much over time.

I hope she can appreciate what I shared with her in song and in other ways, too.

What in the world is a "bunny boiler"?

--- Rapha

[Rapha]

Never mind... I just Googled "bunny boiler". No, no worries there!

(And boy am I out of it when it comes to pop culture! In retrospect, I fear that that's one reason my therapists may have been alarmed by my song. I know crazy stories of weird people exist in TV and movies, but my wife and I and kids don't watch that stuff. It's scary to me and can turn me from a person who generally believes the best of people into someone who starts believing the worst of them. I guess I'm so old-fashioned that I thought telling someone you care about them and appreciate them would always be well received, especially with all the ugliness that is in the world today. But in this day and age, I guess we can't be so positively expressive. It makes me sad.)

What are you studying?

--- Rapha

[Guest ASchwartz]

Hi Chisholm,

To answer your question about the therapist drawing a line, the therapist must never, ever act on his/her emotions but use them to understand the patient and help the patient. A parent loves his or her child but never, ever crosses the line into something innapropriate. A parent uses their loving feelings to help their child grow up.

I remember one female patient from long ago who was certain she loved me and wanted to act on it. She was angry that I would not. We got to the bottom of the anger when it came out that she always resented her parents when they told her "no" to something she wanted but could not have. She also could not tolerate the fact that I had other female patients but, here too, she came to understand, through therapy, that she had always believed that a parent has limited amounts of love that could not be shared with all the children.

Allan

[Chisholm]

Hi Allan

Thanks so much and belated Happy Birthday - just saw those posts now!

....the relationship between patient and therapist must be authentic. There is a real relationship between the two but it is the job of the therapist to use his or her own feelings and reactions to the patient in ways that are helpful to that patient. In other words, the therapist does not hide behind a mask of neutrality or falseness.

.........The therapist is also a human being and must react humanly but in the best interests of the patient. He or she may "love" their patient and even feel sexually attracted. A therapist never acts out those feelings but uses them. .....

I guess what I am curious to know is if the therapist does have sexual feelings, how is he/she able to be fully present and authentic in the relationship without inadvertantly revealing (granted my therapist's overtures were not exactly inadvertant but nevertheless..) or disclosing these feelings (I'm assuming of course that disclosure would represent "acting out")?

At what stage does this risk become non-negotiable? Of interest in this connection is that my new psychiatrist feels that it is "hubris" (she loves this word for some reason) for a therapist to believe that he can control these feelings (i.e love/sexual feelings).

X

Chisholm

[Rapha]

I guess what I am curious to know is if the therapist does have sexual feelings, how is he/she able to be fully present and authentic in the relationship without inadvertantly revealing (granted my therapist's overtures were not exactly inadvertant but nevertheless..) or disclosing these feelings (I'm assuming of course that disclosure would represent "acting out")?

At what stage does this risk become non-negotiable? Of interest in this connection is that my new psychiatrist feels that it is "hubris" (she loves this word for some reason) for a therapist to believe that he can control these feelings (i.e love/sexual feelings).

X

Chisholm

I'm not an expert, but it seems to me this would depend entirely upon the self-control of the therapist. Some people are able to handle sexual feelings toward another without it affecting how they treat them, while others will allow those feelings to enter in to the relationship.

I think I get your question about being authentic. If the therapist is physically, sexually attracted to the patient, how can the relationship be considered authentic if the therapist has to hide such feelings? Doesn't this compromise the authenticity of the relationship?

My best friend shared with me recently about emotional self-control, and it was so helpful for me. Just because you have a thought or a feeling does not mean you have to share it with someone. Often, sharing our deepest thoughts is really more about us than it is about the person we're sharing with. Holding these thoughts or feelings back does not make you inauthentic. It's simply emotional self-control. The therapist does the patient no good by letting on about any sexual attraction. This makes the environment unstable and unsafe for the patient.

Sometimes sexual feelings for someone pass. Other times they may grow stronger. In the latter case, it's the therapist's job to determine whether those feelings become so strong that they threaten to (or actually do) compromise the purity of the patient/therapist relationship. If they do, the therapist needs to discontinue treatment.

I wonder if some of this is a male/female thing, too. I've often heard that it is much easier for men to compartmentalize things, so that if a man is physically attracted to someone he may be able to say. "That's fine, but not appropriate in this situation, so I'm just going to tuck those feelings away in this box over here." He doesn't deny that he has the feelings. He's aware of them, but he chooses to set them aside for the sake of a more important purpose. I'm sure some men are more successful with this than others.

I cannot speak from the woman's perspective, but it sounds to me like for a woman everything is connected to everything else, and so a physical/sexual attraction to someone may not be so easily set aside. Any truth to this?

Just my two cents worth.

--- Rapha

[Guest ASchwartz]

Chisholm,

A father has sexual feelings towards his daughters. A mother has them towards her sons. Men and women have them towards one another. So what? Does this mean we are supposed to act on them? No! For parents, the feelings are not hidden but changed into loving care for the children. Therapists and patients feel attraction towards one another. The therapist, a good one, is trained to understand his/her feelings and use them to help the patient. Why is this so hard to understand? Is there something from you past that makes it difficult for you?

Allan

[Chisholm]

Hi Allan

I apologise if I am frustrating you. I must defend myself in that I don't think I am unique in struggling to understand the maze of ethical obligations in psychotherapy. Even Gabbard admits that the area is far from clear and SASOP in attempting to defend the profession admitted as much.

Nothing from my past points to my lack of understanding in this respect (although I can completely understand why you might suggest that), only the immediate past - my very traumatic experiences in therapy.

The CSA - I was abused by a stranger, not by anyone in my family. I have never mistaken affection for sexual interest nor vica versa. I have a healthy sex life with my husband - the only thing lacking is emotional intimacy. For me the area that I have struggled with more than anything is the lack of contextualisation of the abuse and the emotional neglect from my mother.

I guess I am just trying to understand at what point my ex-therapist should have stood down and at what point his behaviour would constitute "acting out"? My motives: - to understand that what happened in my therapy was in no way my fault. Unfortunately for me being told that it isn't, is not good enough - I need to understand intellectually. Yes - I know - my defence mechanism but it is what it is (you said so yourself) and thankfully it has served me well in the past and may even have saved my life.

Thanks Allan

[spiritual_emergency]

Chisolm: My motives: - to understand that what happened in my therapy was in no way my fault.

Just a thought from left field...

I'm certain you're aware of the idea that people with schizophrenia have come upon that experience through no fault of their own. What seems to be the premise behind this "good-intention" is that the "schizophrenic" will be relieved to know that whatever has happened, it wasn't their fault. I could go off in several different directions from there but the point I want to focus upon is... if something is not your fault that means you are absolutely powerless to change or alter it.

- It's not your fault your therapist fell in love with you.

- It's not your fault he felt any degree of sexual attraction for you.

- It's not your fault he did any of the things he did.

The implication is that you were, once more, just a passive victim.

This is a very tricky point. I've noticed that people who have undergone traumatic experiences, myself included, are inclined to give our power away and therefore, fail to recognize where we held it. It is very easy to point fingers on this one because he's the professional and he is supposed to hold himself to a specific standard. What about the client? Should they be held to a certain standard too?

I once said that if I was ever trapped in an elevator with my friend, nothing untoward would ever have happened. I'm no longer quite so confident in that regard. Instead, I simply feel grateful that I've never been given the opportunity to discover the answer to that question because one way or the other, I suspect the real answer would trouble me because it would reveal that somewhere, I held some degree of responsibility. Somewhere I was at fault. Somewhere, I was not powerless. Somewhere, I was not a passive victim.

~ Namaste

[IrmaJean]

Chisholm, while interactions with your therapist were two-way and this played some part in his eventual response, it was up to him to hold his feelings in a safe place where they wouldn't harm you. The vulnerability for those types of feelings to form was already inside him. By professional ethics, he is supposed to use this information in ways to help you in your therapy. He failed to do this. You are not responsible for his acting out (however subtly he may have) on his feelings. We can't control the actions of others. When we go into therapy and leave ourselves vulnerable to the therapist, there is a power differential. This is a power therapists must respect and not abuse. He acted out, broke ethical codes and you were harmed.

[Chisholm]

You are 100% spot on SE. The comment that you quoted was simply a retaliatory gesture on my part. I in fact normally have the opposite tendency - I tend to take responsibility for other people's feelings - all the time. I grew up with a moody, neglectful, narcissistic mother and I guess I turned myself inside out taking responsibility for her feelings, her moods, etc - I had to be who my mother wanted me to be in order to attain any form of affirmation.

But those days are over - no more! I take complete responsibility for "my feelings" that I had in therapy for my therapist. Remember I was raped - I could so easily have shouted rape again, I could have shouted "incest taboo", abuse - you name it. But strangely I felt none of these things - because deep down I knew and now fully believe (as does everybody else) that he fell in love with me and hell I felt the same. That he is human, I will never forget and it is this that stopped me from pursuing the matter further - I am an attorney, I knew how vulnerable his licence was. Yes his responsibilities and ethical duties were very different from mine - I could hide behind transference and claim I was totally innocent but I dont. I am very aware that I had far more power in the relationship with him than I was willing to admit - I knew how to unsettle him, how to flirt, how to tease - how to goad him into reacting at times as I would have him do - precisely because I knew he had feelings.

The difference came in seeing the woods for the trees - I had absolutely no idea how much was at stake - how at risk and emotionally vulnerable I was. That was SOLELY his responsibilty and no, I wont take any responsibility for his transgressions. He abandoned and betrayed me in the most shocking way possible and he will have to live with the shame of that (as well as the shame of being judged by his peers in the peer review process) for the rest of his life - no doubt it will make him a better person and perhaps even a better therapist.

I take full responsibility for my feelings and indeed I dont regret them - they reminded me that I was still alive, that emotional intimacy is what I have been yearning for in my life and that I deserve to feel and love in that manner - therein lies the transformational power of love?

Thank you SE for reminding me.

XX