Transference/Countertransference

[malign]

I wasn't trying to minimize it, Chisholm. I've been in therapy a few times, myself.

I guess I was just suggesting some lines around which to build a more functional sense of self. Your sense of self has no need to include others; if it does, you become dependent on those others. This doesn't mean you empty your life of other people. Just your sense of self.

Once you know who you are, then you can fall for someone else. They can become important to you, precisely because they never become you.

[Chisholm]

What can I say - happened 8 months ago and the wound still feel so raw!!!

precisely because they never become you.

. I am interested in this concept - what do you mean by this Malign?

[malign]

You said:

I restructured a very damaged sense of self around his love.

Personally, I'm most concerned with what you felt, because to me, his feelings are entirely secondary. To my mind, you said what's important, right here. Had he been doing what he was supposed to, he would not have let you structure your new self-image around him. That's precisely what therapists are supposed to avoid, and why they have so much power: their clients are (more or less) shattered, and it's important that the rebuilding process be helped by the therapist, without the product (the client's new self) depending on the therapist for its existence. A delicate process, I think you'll agree.

With your sense of self built around the therapist, it's little wonder it wouldn't hold up to losing him. What you need to build now, and I believe you're quite as capable as the next person to do it, is to build a self that's free-standing. You have worth, all by yourself, without needing someone else's love, or your belief in that love, to exist. This doesn't mean you don't need love; it means you can exist without it, as we all must, in between loves.

[Chisholm]

I know we have been here before but again I don't think the nature of his subjective feelings are the issue. Just whether I saw things correctly. Whether it was love/erotic countertransference/wrong or right/predatorial or abuse. I know I can survive without the love - but I need to trust my own intuition when it comes to perceiving reality? When he denied everything I lost all faith in that intuition.

[malign]

Yah, but when you mix the concepts of "feeling" and "correctness", you're suddenly helpless. Who is certain of what they feel, much less what others feel?

I think you might have to allow your intuition to be mistaken, because you'll never be certain that it's right. Now, you can build trust in your intuition with trial and error, but ultimately, I think it'll come down to being able to live with it being wrong, at times.

And, it could come down to our experiences having been different, too. So my answer may end up being different from yours. I still hope you find one. :-)

[malign]

Sorry, an extra thought:

It seems to me as if you're putting so much weight on your intuition being right about someone because you're going to bet a lot on (maybe build your world around?) that person. Maybe the answer is to take it slowly, and not bet the world (or at least your own identity) on anyone.

If you build your world around you, there's no need for accurate intuition about others. Your world won't end if they turn out to be different than you thought.

[Chisholm]

Bear with me - trying to study Research Methodology, watch The Practice and post at the same time -:eek: but that "become you thing" hooked me.

To the extent that we project the stuff that we disown within ourselves - my sensitivity (which I never accepted), I projected onto him, etc, etc - which he then reflected back to me. So to the extent that I saw my reflection in him - the transference was never resolved therefore I never got the chance to take back those projections......complicated by the fact that (if he fell in love with me as all the psychs/emails suggest) there were many hooks (turns out we were very similar ie we are both very intense (no - can you tell!?), emotional and sensitive). By hooks, I mean that the projections fitted so he walked off with a lot of my stuff - never really to be sifted out because we are in fact so similar - this 100% fit that all the psychs talk about. Help!!!

Then just to really complicate things, my current therapist (and the other psychs) suggest that despite everything, there is a gift in the experience, that I need to take affirmation from the fact that he fell in love despite the fact that it was so wrong.

Any suggestions on what that gift may be (other than an extensive therapy bill)?

[malign]

Well, I can't say that my own personality is very similar to yours (I'm an INTJ), so keeping that in mind ...

I think there's a gift in every opportunity. He may not have shown you how to put together a self-reliant self, but one could say that he showed you how not to ...

I have a hard time with all the "therapy theory"; I get lost in all the "mirrors", I guess. I guess I'm happy with just one mirror, the one I shave in ... After all, the point isn't to find a person who shows you yourself looking into a person looking into you, ad infinitum. The point is to find yourself. And all you have to do is pat yourself; you're there. It's all the rest of us who might be figments of your imagination. ;-)

I would tend to take affirmation from the fact that despite all you've been through, you can still feel. That's something you can build on.

[IrmaJean]

Chisholm, the gift is with you and your feelings... it's in the knowledge you take out of this about yourself. It's in the realization of your potential and in knowing what you have to offer. It's with you. It's about you.

[Chisholm]

Can't remember what I am - but believe it or not, what I can remember of the test, besides being introverted, my intuition also comes before the thinking!!!

Only when traumatised do I jump into "left brain chatter" thinking mode to numb the feelings.

Oh and all that "therapy theory" - couldn't agree more - unfortunately it became the intellectual foreplay/masturbation btw my ex-therapist and I. Just glad it was not consummated or am I??? Hmmm will have to think about that one - or is it feel:D??? Fortunately my sense of humour didn't go down with the ship.....

So true to feeling right now, I am going to stop obsessing, cut myself some slack, make myself some coffee (decaf) and jump into bed (oh in SA it's quite late). Little bit of self-nurturing - self love - huh?

Thanks so much for being so REAL and AUTHENTIC - you're no figment!

Night, night

[malign]

Hmm, how does one consummate intellectual foreplay?

Sounds like it's time for the Vulcan mind-meld. ;-)

I've always been quite good at left-brain chatter ... But as the Birds said, "I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now."

A sense of humor is a very helpful thing, in my opinion. {It's also only my opinion that I have one.} ;-)

Slack, too, is very helpful.

Take care of yourself. {The rest is easy.}

[Rapha]

Thank you IJ - you are a breath of fresh air. Don't know if you've followed any of the Rapha posts but I think I have just been put off/cured of intellectualising for good. Yikes!!!!

XX

Glad I could help cure you! The bill is in the mail.

[Chisholm]

Hi Rapha

No offence meant - in fact it is quite refreshing to know that other people also go into such depths - I don't feel so alone. I also relate to the concept of creativity being an "act of love/awe" so to speak. I read a lot of Joseph Campbell in this connection - "follow your bliss".....etc

I am still curious though - why do you feel I should share responsibility for what happened between my psychiatrist and myself?

X

[Rapha]

Sorry I haven't responded to your posts in my thread. I'll respond here, since that's really where it belongs.

I'm deeply touched by what you've gone through (and am so impressed with the care, concern and insight of all who continue to walk with you through this since you began posting).

I think your story is quite beautiful and it definitely sounds like transference played a hand. Although the closer I have looked at the concept, the less mysterious it has become in my eyes - quite natural and more common than most people realise.

Thanks. Don't know if you still think it's a beautiful story, though, after my most recent posts.

I am curious though, what do you feel is the similarity between your situation and mine?

I can't remember where I said this or in what context. Can you refresh my memory?

In what way would I be partly responsible for what happened between my therapist and myself?

Just curious and quite open to suggestions. I look forward to reading the last post.

Having just re-read your entire thread, I find myself in agreement with all those who are assuring you that this was in NO way your fault.

We all need to be able to trust our therapists to act at all times in our best interests and to help us heal. I think you did that with your therapist. In fact, when your intuition sent up red flags, you gave him the benefit of the doubt, choosing to trust him even when you weren't sure if you should. In a good therapy situation, the patient should be able to be open and vulnerable, and the therapist's focus should be solely on you. As he developed feelings for you, feelings which strengthened over time and which he would not deny (even though he couldn't make them known or act on them), this compromised his ability to be impartial. His focus, while still on you, could not be solely on you.

I know he mentioned that perhaps you should change therapists. But this is not the patient's job! It's the therapist's duty to excuse himself from such a situation. This should have been done a long time ago.

Perhaps looking at what true love is will help. Let me draw a little from my own experience this year. You know my story. I developed a "crush" on (or "fell in love" with or whatever you want to call it) my PT shortly after I began therapy. Though there wasn't physical, sexual desire, this doesn't matter. I was intellectually and emotionally drawn to her and loved spending time with her. Besides, if two people who are attracted to one another on an emotional level become emotionally intimate, physical feelings will usually follow at some point.

Maybe this is what happened to your therapist. Perhaps as he got to know you more and more intimately, he became attracted on an intellectual level. You seem to be very intelligent and articulate, and I can see how a man with his level of education and intellectual skills could be attracted to you in this way. And if he has any kind of a beating heart in that chest of his, I can see how he could care about you at an emotional level. You've been through a lot, and I don't doubt that his heart went out to you. If he was attracted to you at these levels, this can lead to a physical attraction. Obviously I don't begin to know whether this is really how it all happened for him or not. And it really doesn't matter. The fact is, I and many others believe that in some fashion he fell in love with you.

But true love is not a "crush" or "falling in love". Those are strong feelings, whether they are purely intellectual/emotional in nature, sexual in nature or some combination. But they can come and they can go. True selfless love is not a feeling. It's a choice, an act of the will to put another's well-being above that of your own.

If your therapist had truly loved you in this higher sense, he would have never let his feelings toward you be known. Alternately, if he happened to slip and let the cat out of the bag (which he did), he would have immediately recused himself from serving as your psychotherapist. I'm not sure how you would have taken this, however. You may have felt just as betrayed and abandoned by this as you have felt by the way he's placed all the blame for his improprieties upon you.

Engaging in intellectual foreplay and playing emotional hide and seek is NOT what a truly loving and caring therapist does for his patient. Those are things you do to a patient. And that's why he's in trouble now — he did something harmful to you.

While he may have fallen in love with you, I don't believe he truly "loved" you.

[Chisholm]

Thank you Rapha. (Just finished blubbing - needed to have a good cry anyway!) I am so touched by your concern and deep understanding of what happened - understanding like that can only come from someone who has had his own pain and who is genuinely in touch with their own sensitivity and intuition. No doubt your own experiences resonate. When at times I have found what I have been through too overwhelming, I often hang onto this quote by Richard Bach:

The mark of your ignorance is the depth of your belief in injustice and tragedy. What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the Master calls the butterfly.

I hope that I will eventually walk away from this stronger for what I have been through but at times the journey just seems too painful to bear. Strangely, it was my therapist who referred me to a book by Richard Bach entitled The Bridge Across Forever, it is the most beautiful love story about two soulmates who meet across the time barrier. He referred me to the book after I expressed regret at never having got to know him at school (we were at the same school but never knew each other then). He was so touched when I expressed this regret. There was an unbelievable emotional connection between us - the likes of which I have never experienced before and probably never will again - perhaps this is indeed the gift that all the psychs refer to.

In the end, when he denied everything I guess I had pretty much left him with little choice - he stood to lose his family and his career. I had smsed him and told him that "his feelings were destroying me". I will never know whether he denied his feelings because he was genuinely concerned for me (given my past - CSA) or whether he now realised that he stood to lose everything. I will never really know whether he took the risk (in revealing his feelings) in the end for me or for himself - no doubt a bit of both - or perhaps this is just how he justified it to himself. I guess judgement is always questionable on the hotplate of feelings. I have some more (romantic and spiritual) soulful friends who refuse to let me throw it all into a black pot and burn it. Some indeed insist that he took the risk because he truly felt that his love would signify a "corrective emotional experience".

The profession (and all the psychs that I spoke to) will argue that it should never have got to that stage in the first place - that it was indeed unethical and negligent. I could throw it all away in the same breath in an effort to save myself any blame/any responsibility but sometimes I wonder......

Thank you Rapha. I am profoundly moved by your insight.

X

[Rapha]

I know I can survive without the love - but I need to trust my own intuition when it comes to perceiving reality? When he denied everything I lost all faith in that intuition.

X Chisholm

Please don't lose all faith in your intuition. But you are wise not to fully trust it either. Intuition is not infallible. You will get it wrong once in awhile, and the sooner you can accept that, the better in my opinion. But this is no reason to lose all faith.

From what you've written, I'm guessing you're either an INFJ or an INFP. If so, you have stronger than average intuition. I am a high "N" (iNtuitive), and I used to trust my intuition. But ever since something that happened about eleven years ago, I've doubted my intuition. And I think it's made my life worse. I've made bad decisions because I've been ignoring my intuition.

Recently I read through my Myers-Briggs Type Description and realized that despite the occasional misread, I still need to listen to my intuition. If you're Intuitive, don't give up on it just because of one incident where maybe you weren't right.

I'm not even sure I'm on the right track with some of what I've just said. You may just want to ignore much of it in light of what follows.

Perhaps your intuition wasn't off at all. Many of us think your intuition was clearly trying to speak wisdom to you when you kept wondering whether you should stop seeing him and start seeing another therapist. It seems like your emotions just got in the way of your intuition and prevented you from escaping the situation.

As for your intuition about whether he really loved you or not? Well, you were never really sure where he stood, so you can't say your intuition was wrong. (You still seem to struggle with this at times.) Why weren't you sure? The fact is, there was never honesty on his part to give your intuition what it needed to be certain one way or the other.

Your therapist willfully implied his affection while refusing to directly communicate it to you in order to protect himself. He sent mixed signals. No wonder you're confused and doubting your intuition! This would confuse anyone in your situation. So your intuition can't be to blame here, either.

Have faith in yourself. You have a good head on your shoulders, a good heart, and a good therapist now who can help you continue to process all that you're going through.

[Rapha]

What is CSA?

[Chisholm]

CSA - childhood sexual abuse. I was repeatedly raped as an 11 year old but I have put that behind me.

It is interesting what you say about intuition. I think (regardless of his mixed messages because after all intuition reads below the level of communication) I was indeed torn and not just by my feelings for him. I think I intuitively knew that the situation was unethical/risky but I also intuitively deep down felt that he loved me - quite a quandary. If I had let "logos" rule, no doubt the ethics or lack thereof would have become more apparent. I still have to wonder whether my intuition knew that the love that I received was worth risking the inevitable pain. Truth be told, I had a strong feeling that it would end in disaster. Perhaps I somehow intuited this "gift" that the psychs/friends speak of.

UUUGh I feel like I've just mentally contorted!!!! Thank you for everything Rapha.

XX

[Rapha]

I cringe when I think of the things I shared with you – totally trusting, baring my soul. I have been naked before and been raped physically – in some ways I exposed myself again and you raped my mind.

And your heart, Chisholm.

Rape is rape, whether it's physical, mental and/or emotional. And being raped in any form by a "trusted" person would, I imagine, be worse than being raped by a stranger.

[Rapha]

Three adjectives that I would use to describe myself; introspective, emotionally intense and very sensitive. I would be very curious to know what causes the projection that occurs within therapy. Do we project the attribute/feeling etc in an unconscious manner because we deny/disown it in ourselves ie we split off the feeling or is the projection simply something that naturally occurs in all interactions - perhaps more so in therapy because of the blank screen phenomenon? Would Alan have any answers for this (is he away at the moment - have not seen too many of his posts lately)?

Then it becomes more complicated - my ex-therapist (John) was far from a blank screen and it did not take much to work out what he was like. Three adjectives that I would use to describe myself; introspective, emotionally intense and very sensitive (some I own happily, others are not a comfortable fit). These are the same attributes that I saw in him. Normally one might suggest I was seeing my own projections but, and this is where it gets interesting, I recently asked John's ex-best friend how he would describe John. He described him in EXACTLY those terms. Guess that's where the 100% fit came in!! Well hell, how do I unscramble that and how do I take my projections back? How the hell do I work out what was my "stuff" and what was his?

Guess that is why it could never work with his "stuff" in the room.

So interesting, this post.

Regarding the 100% fit, let's make him the patient for a minute. It seems to me that in you he saw a reflection of himself. He identified with you at the deepest, most personal level possible. To the extent that he understands himself, he felt like he understood you. There must be times when his introspection, emotional intensity and/or sensitivity are not comfortable fits for him, either. Perhaps accepting and loving you, a person with those exact same characteristics, he was in a sense loving and accepting himself, including his hang-ups and shortcomings. Despite the fact that he is a trained psychotherapist, he may have not recognized this was happening, or if he did recognize it, he simply couldn't help himself because of the "100% fit".

Men who are very sensitive sometimes struggle with finding an outlet for that sensitivity. Many men find it difficult to share deeply with another man but easy to share with a woman. Ethically he wasn't permitted to share his feelings toward you, but his heart trumped his better judgment and he ultimately fell off the cliff.

True love is not just a matter of the heart. It's a matter of the heart, the soul, the strength and the mind. When one takes precedence over all others, danger looms.

[Rapha]

The profession (and all the psychs that I spoke to) will argue that it should never have got to that stage in the first place - that it was indeed unethical and negligent. I could throw it all away in the same breath in an effort to save myself any blame/any responsibility but sometimes I wonder......X

I am way outside of my area, as I had a deep affection for my PT but it was not reciprocal, I wasn't spilling out my guts to her in psychotherapy and I only saw her for four-and-a-half months. Your experience runs far, far deeper, especially with CSA in your past. So take this with a few grains of salt...

There must be some positives you can take away from this. I don't claim to know what those might be, though hopefully some of the comments I and others (and your new therapist) have made will provide some food for thought.

If nothing else, you know that the man you were so deeply attached to is not a perfect man. He has some significant flaws. (And his back's probably totally hairy, too!)

I'm curious what you were hoping for between the two of you.

[Rapha]

Truth be told, I had a strong feeling that it would end in disaster.XX

Did this ever frighten you, this strong feeling?

[Chisholm]

Hi Rapha

I don't know that I was hoping for anything really - I guess I was too caught up in the moment - fluctuating between the anxiety (which had a lot to do with the mixed signals) and the sheer bliss of feeling loved and yes the excitement too.....

It's strange I knew he found his feelings threatening - he told me that much but I don't think I understood the ethical issues at stake at all. I naively (and this is probably where I did project some of my own anxiety around sexuality) assumed that he found his feelings as embarrassing as I found mine. I also assumed that he could not fully disclose because of the gratification theory in therapy and my other thought was that it would also represent "incest taboo" - I actually looked up these issues at the time. Strange how the lawyer in me went to sleep - I did not realise that his disclosing those feelings would represent professional misconduct. Some of the psychs have said however that the emails alone represented misconduct - this before you even consider whether they were sexually explicit.

I don't think I ever really knew where it was all going - some psychs have ventured that he would have kept me in therapy forever (I wouldn't have protested!), others have suggested that he was on the verge of acting out completely - I wouldn't know. I never felt threatened by his physical feelings (that I thought I saw), why would I - I had my own. I do sometimes wonder what would have happened had I fully verbalised my feelings........but I never did.

I certainly had my fantasies but then I knew them to be just that - fantasies. Not for one minute did I think that he would act out his physical feelings - I trusted him (although here again I might have been naive because according to the psychs he was already acting out his feelings the minute he did not refer me).

Truth be told, I had a strong feeling that it would end in disaster.XX

This must have been an intuition/sixth sense - something to do with all the mixed signals and inconsistencies (or as a friend put it - the writing was on the wall) but you know how it is when those trees are slapping you in the face - what in hell is a wood!!??? - actually don't answer that.

All I can tell you is that it was a sense of foreboding which put together with the bliss, anxiety, excitement, etc - made for pretty hectic therapy!!

But now it is my turn to be curious. Can you honestly say that you had no physical feelings for Priti?

X

[IrmaJean]

I can't speak for Rapha, but I always think in symbolism with this. I realize now that what I felt then, from a physical standpoint, was a response to the intensity of my feelings and wasn't truly representative of them. The gift, in my case, was the love I was feeling. It was ultimately sweet, loving, giving and pure...the very best of me. Imagining myself capable of such a love, even in this limited space, still warms my heart. It's a very special place to me. And I truly hope my former therapist would not mind me discussing this here.

Chisholm, I would look to what it means to you to be loved in the way you felt loved within the relationship. Do you think that being "caught in the moment" went beyond your usual intellectual mode? Perhaps your ability to let go and be inside the moment is something that you can repeat now in a healthier environment with those who love you. What do you think?

[Rapha]

But now it is my turn to be curious. Can you honestly say that you had no physical feelings for Priti?

X

Hi, Chisholm! Sorry I've been away for a bit. How are you doing?

The short answer is yes, I can honestly say that. (I've written a very long answer as well, but I'll only post it if you want to read a bunch of rambling thoughts on the subject.)

--- Rapha